Wednesday, March 10, 2010

Casey Anthony Case: Nancy Grace transcript March 10, 2010


Casey Anthony Defense Team Wants Evidence Thrown Out
Aired March 10, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. Ban the photos! That`s what tot mom`s fleet of defense attorneys are screaming to the trial judge. That`s right, tot mom hopes the jury will never see photos of her out on the town in a mini-skirt and push-up bra in the very days, the hours after she says her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, disappears. Not only that, she wants her own mother`s 911 call thrown out, where Cindy Anthony admits tot mom`s car smells like a dead body.

And listen, that`s the tip of the iceberg. The defense lists over 200 pieces of evidence they want banned from the courtroom. Why? Because it`s all damning. To top it all off, after raking in well over a quarter million dollars for their stories, their photos, their interviews, now tot mom says she`s broke. Broke! The taxpayers, you and me, have to pay for her defense. That`s right. Price tag, the defense says at least $1 million.


911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff (INAUDIBLE) I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

911 OPERATOR: OK. What is her...

CINDY ANTHONY: Get someone here now!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A web of lies -- that`s what police say they`re dealing with in the search for Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar.

CINDY ANTHONY: Get someone here now!

911 OPERATOR: OK, what is the address that you`re calling from?

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lied to your parents and friends concerning your child`s whereabouts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.

CINDY ANTHONY: You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?


CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies.

CASEY ANTHONY: There`s absolutely nothing to find out. That`s even what I told the detectives.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Well, you know, everything that you`re telling them is a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where Caylee is. If I knew where Caylee was, do you think any of this would be happening? No.

CINDY ANTHONY: I need to find her!

911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted the baby is where?

CINDY ANTHONY: The baby-sitter took her a month ago that my daughter`s been working for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hundreds of pictures of Casey Anthony, many of them racy, embarrassing. We`re talking about thousands of photos, photos like that, Casey partying it up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the photos are from the time when Caylee had disappeared. Others are from as far away as a year ago.

CINDY ANTHONY: I am upset now. I`m completely upset. One, the media`s going to have a frickin` field day with this!

CINDY ANTHONY: She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think there`s any evidence that`s been released that shows the heinous, atrocious, cruel aggravator exists.

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Ban the photos. That`s what tot mom`s fleet of defense attorneys are screaming to the trial judge. Tot mom hopes this jury will never see the photos of her out on the town in a mini-skirt and a push-up bra, all happening in the very days, the hours after she says her little girl, 2-year-old Caylee, disappears.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You found out she was going to be at a party, and then you went to that party, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you wait there for her at the Dragon Room?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was there in downtown, in the grater downtown area, probably until 3:00 in the morning.

GRACE: Private revealing photos...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is that relevant as to whether or not she killed her daughter? All they`re doing is showing bad character.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state`s going to contend, one of the motives, one of the reason she killed her daughter was because it just didn`t fit in with her lifestyle.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry!

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anywhere we can restrict the irrelevant information from possibly affecting her right to a fair trial, it should be done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigative interviews with Casey`s friend, Amy Huizenga, reveals information about a rich social life for Casey Anthony not long after her daughter was lost from the picture.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The going out, the partying (INAUDIBLE) Casey in the American flag is from that no-clothes party we went to in May.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re playing with fire when we`re playing with the rights of a fair trial.

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I call Zenaida`s cell phone, and it`s out of service.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Casey ever take money from you by using your credit cards without your permission?

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s not relevant to this case.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t care what I have to do. What I told them I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever by any means to get her back. That`s exactly how I feel. It`s the truth.


GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich, joining us from CNN affiliate WFTV there in Orlando. Kathi, I`ve got all the motions right here. There`s over 200 pieces of evidence that they want banned from the jury`s eyesight and ear sight, I guess. They don`t want the jury to hear any of this.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right, they don`t. And you saw those pictures. They don`t want the jury to see the pictures before or after Caylee disappeared. And there are 207 statements that I counted that -- plus Cindy`s 911 call, that the defense wants to keep out of this trial. They say that those comments are prejudicial, that it`s hearsay, it`s not admissible, it only makes Casey look bad, and it`s not credible evidence. It shouldn`t come into the trial. That`s their argument.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Over 200 pieces of evidence tot mom`s defense team wants thrown out. The jury will never see or hear over 200 crucial pieces of evidence to the state, if they have their way.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss, family law attorney, New York, Richard Herman, renowned attorney out of New York, and high-profile lawyer out of Seattle jurisdiction Anne Bremner.

Of course, Sue Moss -- of course they make her look bad. Every piece of evidence that the state brings in in any trial makes the defendant look bad because it proves they`re guilty.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh, these pix will stay in the mix! The pictures before the alleged abduction come in because they go to motive, the motive that Mom didn`t want to be a mom any more. The pictures after this alleged abduction is also going to come in. She was supposed to be searching for the kid, not going out and getting drunk.

GRACE: Richard Herman, do they have a leg to stand on, asking for all these pieces of evidence, over 200 pieces of evidence, the 911 call, photos, reams of evidence be thrown out?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They do, Nancy, because in a death penalty case, there`s a heightened level of due process protection afforded to a defendant. And here the judge is going to have to carefully balance the prejudicial value of the particular items of evidence against the probative value of it. I think a lot of these...

GRACE: Put Herman up, please. Put Herman up. Put him up!

HERMAN: Oh, boy.


GRACE: Richard...

HERMAN: Earshot. You said earshot.

GRACE: It will be -- I know. That was a boo-boo.


GRACE: Richard, it will be a cold day below when a 911 call is not allowed in front of a jury. What about it, Bremner?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, except for that when I was a prosecutor we had stock briefs that said 911 calls were admissible "excited utterances." But the fact of the matter is she`s talking about something that happened before, about the -- how the car smelled before. So it`s not your classic excited utterance where someone...

GRACE: Anne Bremner...

BREMNER: ... calls 911 -- 911...

GRACE: ... she was talking about what the car smelled like at that moment...

HERMAN: That`s coming in.

GRACE: ... when she was calling 911.

BREMNER: She said it "smelled" like. But the thing -- E-D. E-D. Smelled like...

GRACE: When she...

BREMNER: But Nancy...

GRACE: ... opened it up...

BREMNER: But Nancy...

GRACE: ... then she called 911. That`s like, I just heard a gunshot, heard, happened two seconds ago.

BREMNER: No, but the thing is...

GRACE: It`s in past tense.

BREMNER: The key is on 911 is, I`m calling because there`s a gunman at my door. I`m afraid. My children, my kid`s in the bathroom...

GRACE: Anne...

BREMNER: ... with the 6-year-old sister.

GRACE: Anne?


GRACE: Just try, try to just be honest. Don`t take one side or the other. Do you really think they`re going to throw out the 91 call? Do you really believe that, as a lawyer? Put your reputation on this answer!

BREMNER: Nancy -- OK, but Nancy...

GRACE: Just answer!

BREMNER: They`re going to throw out...

GRACE: That`s a yes/no!

BREMNER: This call probably comes in. A lot of it doesn`t come in.

GRACE: OK, so I`m going to take that as a yes.

BREMNER: You can take it as a yes.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, what else did -- wait. Hold on, Ellie. Let`s take a look. Liz, see if you can scroll through some of these photos for me that they want thrown out.

Let`s see. Here is tot mom licking, or let me say, tonguing a burrito with another woman, getting groped by a shirtless young man. You know, nothing says class like urinating in a public parking lot. That one has a good chance of being thrown out. Here is tot mom -- who cares if she`s dancing with another woman. The fact is, it`s immediately after she says her daughter goes missing. Here we go. I said scroll quickly. There are more party photos. Typically, these would mean nothing to any of us, except that they are taken in the hours, the days after she says her daughter is kidnapped in a public park.

Out to Ellie Jostad. What else do they want suppressed?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, there`s a long list here. But I just want to point out one thing really quickly. I`m looking at the 911 call transcript. The words that Cindy Anthony used were "it smells" with an "S"...

GRACE: Did you hear that, Bremner?

JOSTAD: ... like a dead body.

GRACE: Did you hear that, Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: But she also used past tense in there, and that`s in the brief. And I did hear it.

GRACE: You`re not going to let it go, are you. I respect that.

BREMNER: No, I`m not.

GRACE: Go ahead, Ellie.

JOSTAD: OK. All right. So here`s the list of the items that they want kept out. They want a lot of the testimony about things that witnesses claim, George, Cindy, Lee Anthony described to them about what was going on in their house. For example, both Lee and -- both Jesse Grund, Casey`s old boyfriend, and his father claimed that Lee Anthony claimed there was actually a fight between Cindy and her mother -- or Casey and her mother, where they actually became physical. Casey was choked by her mother.

GRACE: You mean they had a physical fight?

JOSTAD: That`s right.

GRACE: Tot mom and her mother.

JOSTAD: Yes. And right before Caylee went missing.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Tell me your name, please.

CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The face that Caylee Anthony saw in those final moments of her life was her mother`s face.

CASEY ANTHONY: I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not that smart.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone knew that Casey lied.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know what I`m honestly up against.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was the truth we didn`t know.

LEE ANTHONY: I believe everything that my sister tells me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all knew we didn`t believe her.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have to keep my mouth shut about how I feel!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You believe she was fabricating.

CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered the question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can I say? You believe your child.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to comfort me!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You put faith in everything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She tried to pin it on Zanny the nanny.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She tries to pin it on people who don`t even exist.

CASEY ANTHONY: You`re not helping me help myself.

CINDY ANTHONY: What she told me and what I found out was two different things.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a random question. Are there cameras in all of the rooms or just...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no freaking clue.

911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff -- I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

911 OPERATOR: OK. What is...

CINDY ANTHONY: Get someone here now!

911 OPERATOR: OK, what is the address that you`re calling from?

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her! I need to find her!

911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted the baby is where?

CINDY ANTHONY: That the baby-sitter took her a month ago, that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong! I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Michelle in South Carolina. Hi, Michelle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. Thank you so much for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks. Your twins are beautiful, by the way.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a comment and a question.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Earlier, you said that, you know, the prosecutors are making Casey look bad, but it`s -- we have the evidence right in front of us that is showing Casey looking herself -- making herself look bad, you know, after her daughter came up missing.

My question is, since the beginning of this case, which I`ve watched, like, every single show that you`ve had on it, they constantly are talking about fairness and giving her fair trials, and you hear about now the taxpayers are going to have to pay, you know, her dream team. I just don`t understand why she just can`t take the initiative, you know, to just stand up and admit it, or at least be treated like everybody else has to be treated.

GRACE: And you know, Michelle, let me just throw this into that pot. Number one, I didn`t say the prosecutors were making her look bad. That`s what the defense is claiming the prosecutors are trying to do. I agree with you. The only one that can make you look bad is yourself, and that`s exactly what tot mom has done.

But about her standing up and admitting she did it -- her parents` home is now being foreclosed, and I wonder how much money they`ve tossed into this, good money after bad.

Ellie Jostad, about how much money do we know of, or that we -- it`s been reported that tot mom`s family has received for their stories, interviews licensing fees...

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: ... for photos? How much money?

JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. Well, according to a bunch of different sources, TVNewser for one, she was paid or the family was paid or their lawyer was paid upwards $220,000 to $225,000 for an interview or to license those videos and pictures you were talking about. We also heard about another news organization that paid the family $6,500 or paid one of their representatives that money. There`s also another $5,000 interview fee that`s been tossed out there. So when you`re talking about it all together, we`re almost up to $300,000.

GRACE: And that`s that we know of, Ellie.

JOSTAD: Right. That`s correct.

GRACE: Out to you, Natisha Lance, also on the story. Natisha, didn`t tot mom`s parents, George and Cindy Anthony, just get back from a luxury cruise that they allegedly paid for with money from CBS?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. They did take a cruise. We are understanding that they did use the money from the CBS interview to go on that cruise. But in addition to that, Nancy, and particularly these photos in the blue dress, I want to point out that Casey Anthony said that she was doing her own investigating, trying to go to places that Zenaida Gonzalez was hanging out to try to find Caylee. But in the pictures, it doesn`t look like she`s doing much investigating.

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, joining us out of Sacramento, California. Leonard, what do you make of Casey Anthony now claiming she`s broke and that we, the taxpayers, have to foot the bill?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, the justice system that we work under in America provides for counsel. If you`re indigent, the taxpayers have to, in a roundabout way, pay for it, not just in her case, but in...

GRACE: But do the taxpayers have to pay...

PADILLA: ... every case in America.

GRACE: ... for a million-dollar defense? Where`s it say...

PADILLA: It`ll be more than a million dollars.

GRACE: ... that in the Constitution?

PADILLA: I can tell you it`s going to be upwards of $3 million by the time they get the appeals and everything done.


CINDY ANTHONY: I think she fabricated the stories because she didn`t have Caylee with her, and she knew if she came home without Caylee, there`d be a red flag.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that red flag would mean that something was probably wrong.

CINDY ANTHONY: Something happened, right.




CASEY ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.

CINDY ANTHONY: I still believe my daughter.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I believe in my daughter.

CINDY ANTHONY: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

CINDY ANTHONY: My husband`s a deputy sheriff years ago. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

GEORGE CASEY: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car, and the worst odor you could possibly smell in this world.

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter may have some mistruths out there or half truths, but she is not a murderer.


GRACE: Well, it all comes to a head in court. I have with me right now about two inches worth of legal filings where tot mom`s defense, her fleet of defense attorneys, want to throw out over 200 pieces of the state`s evidence against her. And not only this, this one little piece of paper that says "application for criminal indigent status." Forget about the fact that she and her family have raked in over a quarter million dollars for their photos, their interviews, their stories. Now they want you and me to pay the legal bill that they estimate will be $1 million, bottom figure.

Out to the lines. Diane, New York. Hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s an honor to speak with you.

GRACE: Likewise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re one of my...

GRACE: Likewise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t -- I missed you last night because my power went out.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And I was devastated because I never miss a show. And your twins are beautiful.

GRACE: Well, you missed a lot because Misty Croslin was in court.


GRACE: Yes. So what do you think about tot mom and her defense motions?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I do have a question.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I think, first of all, the pictures speak for themselves. It`s definitely not what -- a mom of a missing child or a grieving mother definitely would not be acting that way. But I have a question about the tape that was put over Caylee`s mouth.

GRACE: OK. What?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if you`d agree. I do believe that she killed her, whether accidentally or on purpose. I think the tape was put there after she was dead. I think she had a moment of remorse, and I know this may sound strange, but I think she probably thought about maybe insects or whatever crawling in her mouth because the red heart that was put there. I don`t think that that was just done without feeling some kind of remorse. And I don`t...



CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony`s defense team on a mission to repair her reputation. Asking that all hearsay and gossip about their client be excluded from trial. The stealing.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Taking money from my wife`s purse. She forged a deposit slip for $4,400.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Check number 146 from her ex-best friend`s check book. Investigators say this is one of the checks she used to clean out Amy Huizenga`s checking account.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: She`s like, well, maybe this should have be done a long time ago. Stolen money from mom, I`ve been a bad daughter, you know, I`ve been -- she said, I stole money from you.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And then there`s Casey Anthony. The alleged party girl.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Huizenga tells investigators, "I know she had started smoking more pot than she ever had." The statement about Casey referred to mid-June, right around the time Caylee was last seen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many text messages Casey received and also that she sent out. And those were her favorite topics. Who she wanted to have sex with, drinking and smoking pot. That seemed to be the things she was concentrating on mostly. Not about Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And the alleged lies.

C. ANTHONY: I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive. I do not know where she is. The last person that I saw her with is Zenaida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could all tell that from the last couple years, Casey is a very effective liar.

C. ANTHONY: I would not let anything happen to my daughter. I made the mistake of trusting another person with her. That`s it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Attorney Jose Baez says Casey has suffered the public` hatred and that law enforcement or the state attorney`s office has successfully tried a homicide case against the defendant in the public eye.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight back out to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, aside from the party photos of her out partying, scantily clad, significant as it`s immediately after she says her little girl has been kidnapped.


GRACE: In a public park. Aside from that, aside from the 911 call, her own mother, Cindy Anthony, says that tot mom`s car smells like a dead body. What else do they want suppressed?

JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, there`s a bunch of statements here and a lot of them have to do with Casey Anthony being a liar. Various people say that she lied or that Cindy told me she`d been telling lies. Lee Anthony told me she`d been telling lies. George Anthony said she`d been telling lies.

GRACE: What about the fight? The alleged fight. Fistfight between grandmother, Cindy Anthony and tot mom Casey Anthony.

JOSTAD: Mm-hmm. Well this, according to Jesse Grund, the ex- boyfriend, and his father, the information originally came from Lee Anthony. He said that just a couple of nights or actually the night before, I believe, Caylee went missing that Cindy and Casey got into a very heated argument so heated that it actually became physical. That Cindy put her hands around Casey Anthony`s neck.

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who put up the bond for tot mom to get out of jail. She was later rearrested.

Leonard, what do you know about a physical confrontation between Casey Anthony and grandmother Cindy Anthony?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It took place the evening of the 15th which was Father`s Day, and Cindy and the baby had come back from visiting Cindy`s parents. And at that time the parents told her that Casey had stolen money out of her account.

When she got into the discussion with Casey, Casey tried to kind of write it off as, no, it didn`t take place, somebody`s lying. And Cindy just lost it and went after her. And basically the statements that Jesse and Lee made were the same as what I heard from them.

And that was that the confrontation got so heated that Cindy actually knocked Casey down and had her, was strangling her and except for the, you know, interference of -- I think it was George at the time, she was trying to hurt Casey.

GRACE: Now, Leonard -- Leonard Padilla, is this just before or just after Caylee goes missing?

PADILLA: It was the evening right before. See, George says he last saw the child on the 16th around noon.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: And we`re of the opinion, as some other people are, that Casey gathered up her child that night and left that night. She was never there over night. She left that night and George did not see that child the next day. George was lying about that.

GRACE: Back to Diane in New York`s question about the tape. The duct tape being placed over the child`s mouth. Postmortem. After death. In kind of a loving gesture.

I don`t see it, Ellyn Gamberg, a psychotherapist joining us out of New York. What about you?

ELLYN GAMBERG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Nancy, I think that there is such behavior in total here that -- that is just ---irrelevant to the photos, the lying, the party. It was hard to believe that after all of that that duct tape would be anything significant.

GRACE: I don`t see it as any type of loving gesture. Unleash the lawyers. Sue Moss, Richard Herman, Anne Bremner.

And another thing, Sue Moss, if that was used by the defense as some type of a loving gesture, tot mom would have to admit she was there when the baby died.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Oh, absolutely. I mean, why should this woman start being a loving mother now, after she killed her child? I don`t see it.

GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think that right now there`s no evidence to connect her to the sticker and there are fingerprints of other people on some of the evidence on the child.

GRACE: No evidence to connect her to the duct tape? Did you just say that?

BREMNER: They have forensic experts who I`m sure will opine that there`s not a connection to be made and there are other people`s fingerprints on the duct tape that are not explained, and they don`t belong to people in the family.

So, you know, there are all kinds of things the defense can do in this case. And what they`re doing right now, as you know, Nancy, is like surgery. They`re getting rid of all the bad statements.


BREMNER: And getting rid of all of the bad pictures --

GRACE: All sort of things -- like what sorts of things? What can they claim? Because she gave a statement that her child was taken in plain, broad daylight at a park, then she gave another statement she dropped the child off at Sawgrass Apartments.

You know --

BREMNER: No, no, Nancy --

GRACE: You can`t survive giving conflicting statements to police.

BREMNER: No. What I was talking about were the statements we`re talking about today. All of it hearsay statements. Scores of hearsay statements that they`re going to try and keep out. And I think there`s a lot of great arguments they can make.

And so they`re going to try and keep out all kinds of things until they get to the nut of the case in terms of the defense.

GRACE: OK. What about it, Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Anne is right, Nancy. I mean, this is not a TV show or a miniseries.

GRACE: Well, come up with your own thought. Don`t -- don`t piggyback Anne is right.

HERMAN: Well, if she had been right here on the law --

GRACE: Come on, Herman.

HERMAN: Nancy, come on, bias --

GRACE: She`s not right on the law.

HERMAN: She is right on the law.

GRACE: No. Those statements are coming in. All right? Especially the 911 call.

HERMAN: The 911 call, I absolutely agree with you, is absolutely coming in.

GRACE: Then why is Bremner right? You don`t -- you know what, never mind. Hold on.

Back to you. Ellie Jostad, we just heard Anne Bremner opine, as she says, that the duct tape cannot be traced back to tot mom. Now, Ellie, isn`t it true that this type of duct tape, believe it`s Hinkle duct tape.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Is extremely, let me say, scarce. It`s not rare.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: But it`s scarce. It`s difficult to find. And isn`t it true, Ellie, that this duct tape was found in the Anthony home?

JOSTAD: Yes. That`s right, Nancy. According to the reports we`ve received, this type of tape matched tape that was at the house. Now what they said, it was either from the same roll or it was manufactured in the same way.

But they also provided tons of paperwork about the stores that sell this tape. Most of the big-box stores out there like Wal-Mart, Home Depot, don`t sell it. So it`s a hard kind of tape to find and it was also on a gas can in the Anthony home.

GRACE: I want to go out to Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner, Broward County. Author of "When to Call the Doctor." He is highly esteemed in his field. And it is our honor to have him on with us tonight.

Dr. Perper, today the state really pulled one over on us. Everybody was screaming, please, show us the DNA. They gave us the actual graphs of the DNA which looks like an electrocardiogram or a heartbeat.

Also I remember the first time I brought in DNA at trial and I told the scientist bring it in. I want to show it to the jury. I was shocked. It looked like unrolled negatives that had gone bad. Showing us this, it doesn`t tell us a thing about what DNA proves.

So, in this case, Dr. Perper, what role do you see DNA playing?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, in my opinion, it`s not going to be of highly probative value because if it`s going to be found on evidence close to the child the mother took care of the child so she`s going to claim that those fingerprints were there beforehand.

So it`s very difficult to see on what kind of piece of evidence this kind of matching of DNA versus the DNA of the mother is going to be helpful because of the close proximity in the care or the alleged care of the child by the mother. So it`s very unlikely that --

GRACE: Right.

PERPER: -- it`s going to play any significant role.

GRACE: Well put, Dr. Perper. Except, very quickly, Ellie Jostad, if DNA turns up on that homemade knockout drug.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Any syringes beside the remains.


GRACE: Many people believe that was used to knock little Caylee out. If there is tot mom`s DNA on that, there`s no legitimate reason it should be there.

JOSTAD: Right. Well, the big bombshell we`ve been waiting for is DNA evidence either on that duct tape or on what you explained the syringe. That would definitely look bad for the defense. But so far we don`t have that in the documents.

GRACE: Chloroform. Chloroform. Homemade chloroform.

As we go to break, happy 18th birthday to friend, Stephanie. She is a freshman at Purdue. What a smile. Studying pre-law, dreams of being a lawyer. Never misses the show.

Happy birthday, Stephanie.



CPL. ERIC EDWARDS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Do you have any interest in helping us?

C. ANTHONY: I`ve had interest in helping law enforcement from the beginning. Unfortunately my hands were literally tied and I was put in a position where someone`s trying to trick a confession out of me.

EDWARDS: Well, I don`t want to -- no, don`t --

C. ANTHONY: And that`s not going to happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Baez, we Mirandized her as -- at 4:22. She invoked. Quit the finger pointing, OK?

L. ANTHONY: I`m trying to think, does she really do it only to better herself or just she would just say white lies just to do it? I`m really trying to think now. Because sometimes it seems like she lies just to lie.

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I think he may have said that I drowned Caylee. I think that`s what they`re to say.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE: That you intentionally drowned Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED POLICE: Where was that supposed to have happened?

GRUND: I think in the pool in the backyard.

C. ANTHONY: I as a mom, I know in my gut, there`s the feeling as a parent, you know certain things about your child. You can feel that connection. And I still have that feeling. That presence. I know that she`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Witnesses say Casey and Cindy had a terrible fight over money Casey stole from Cindy`s mother. The California bounty hunter Leonard Padilla who bonded Casey out of jail says Lee told them Cindy tried to choke Casey on Father`s Day. And that`s when she took off with Caylee. Cindy denies it.

GRUND: It got into a very heated argument which turned physical and Cindy started choking Casey.


GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Julie in Florida. Hi, Julie.

JULIE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hey, Nancy, love your book. It is awesome.

GRACE: Thank you.

JULIE: I have a quick comment and a question. First thing, good chance that her parents could never sell that house, that that baby may have been killed in. So it`s probably easier for them to let it go into foreclosure. And they`re going to get a bunch of, you know, book deal, movie deal, money, anyways, eventually, most likely because of all the press on this.

And secondly, I`ve noticed from watching a lot of these defendants at their arraignments in court hearings, a particular habit of (INAUDIBLE), especially of Casey Anthony, even before she was arrested with her fake tears and interviews. She was always gazing down like she`s remembering something of what she did.

Have you noticed that, too?

GRACE: I always noticed her gazing down, for instance, in this photo we were just showing you, the video, covering her face with her hair. Then there were other times she would put it back in a ponytail but continue to look down.

And, you know, not that I think the lawyers are experts in nonverbal communication, but Sue Moss, Richard Herman, Anne Bremner, when you -- when I would get a defendant on the stand and they couldn`t look at me and answer, I would flat-out say, why can`t you look at me?

Why can`t you look at the jury and answer? Why do you have to look down? Why do you have to look over at your attorney? Is he telling you the answer?

I mean, when you can`t look up and look around at people in the courtroom, to me, that`s significant. Sue?

MOSS: Oh, absolutely. And the reason why she`s looking down is because most of that time she was pretending to cry but no real tears were coming down. She was looking down so the cameras couldn`t capture her in yet another lie.

GRACE: You know, Richard Herman, don`t you hate it when your client tries and tries to cry and then nothing comes out?

HERMAN: When my clients is trying to cry they do cry. This is -- she`s facing the death penalty, Nancy --

GRACE: Because you punch them in the ribs with that elbow you`ve got.

HERMAN: No. They`re -- she`s facing the death penalty here. This is very serious case. And so what are you going to try to interpret every gesture she makes? I don`t even know what Sue Moss is talking about here. It`s --

GRACE: OK. Richard Herman --

HERMAN: It`s ridiculous.

GRACE: That was an excellent -- I didn`t know you could dance so well. The way you just danced out of answering that question.

Anne Bremner, can you just be straight? When you can`t look somebody in the eye and answer and you can`t look around the courtroom and look people in the face, to me that is suggestive.

BREMNER: It`s a problem when I`m defending somebody.

GRACE: It`s a problem.

BREMNER: It`s a problem but I`ll tell you, Nancy, everybody wrecks differently. You`ve heard that a million times.

GRACE: Oh lord.

BREMNER: It`s absolutely true. It`s true.

GRACE: OK. You know, no show with you would have been complete if you hadn`t thrown that out there.

Back to you, Kathi Belich, with WFTV. Kathi, tell me what else is happening in the case right now. I know the defense wants so much of the state`s evidence thrown out of court. I don`t think the judge is going to do it. They want her declared indigent so we, the taxpayers, have to pay for her defense. What else am I missing?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, there`s a hearing next week about the indigence issue. The judge will decide whether to find her indigent, whether the taxpayers will pay for the rest of the costs of her defense.

We have a deadline ticking here. The new evidence that has surfaced, that`s under investigation. Prosecutors asked the judge for permission to keep it secret from the defense. The judge agreed to do that 30 days.

That deadline is coming up in about 3 weeks, 2 1/2 weeks from now. If prosecutors want to extend it they have to justify to the judge why they think that needs to be extended.

Also, there`s more than 1,000 pages of new evidence that the defense has recently received that we should be getting soon as well. Some of it concerning a very troubled woman who`s trying to edge her way into this case and some other evidence as well.


ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: She came in and she`s goes, I hope you`re rich because Casey is going to take all your money and leave you high and dry. And then Casey said shut up and then she stormed outside and the grandmother followed her.




CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I have a 3-year-old that`s been missing for a month.



UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Have you reported that?

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m trying to do that now, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: OK. What did the person do that you need arrested?

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter.


CINDY ANTHONY: For stealing an auto and stealing money.


GRACE: Not to mention the granddaughter that was missing, 2-year-old Caylee.

Out to Sergeant Scott Haines, sheriff`s officer, Santa Rosa County, Florida. Isn`t it true that this 911 call meets all the criteria to be admitted at trial? It`s your specialty, you get 911 calls every day.

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL.: Absolutely. Law enforcement agencies are constantly answering 911 calls. In Florida, there`s three requirements to meet for an excited utterance, and this call meets every one to a T.

Mrs. Anthony, first element she was required to witness something that was so shocking or startling to her that the utterance took place. When you smell a smell like that coming from your daughter`s vehicle and you believe that that is possibly your dead granddaughter, that is something that is startling enough to cause you to say things such as that.

And the second thing, she was under stress from that event, which is the second requirement because it`s clear in her voice. And the third requirement is that she didn`t have time to contrive or misrepresent that.

So I think there`s not going to be any issues at all getting that 911 call in. And I also don`t think -- I think that they`re going to be very lucky if any of this gets withheld in court. I think they have a good shot at getting it all into court.

GRACE: Sergeant Scott Haines out of Pensacola, Florida, the same jurisdiction there in Florida at tot mom`s trial. Florida law has a lot of nuances other jurisdictions don`t have.

Thank you, Sergeant.

Quickly, Jeanette in Florida, what`s your question?

JEANETTE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hey, Nancy, you`re one of a kind. God bless you and God bless your children.

GRACE: Thank you.

JEANETTE: They are huggable.

GRACE: Thank you, love. What`s your question?

JEANETTE: OK, my question is this, Nancy. The video that they show in Target, her having (INAUDIBLE) that time, buying the beer and --

GRACE: Right, right.

JEANETTE: OK. Does that go in play to the jury? Can they show that to the jury? Is there any --

GRACE: You know what? Here`s my theory, Jeanette in Florida, that it will come in, only because that happened during the time tot mom says she`s looking for Caylee. So I guess she was looking in the beer section of Target. So yes, I think it will come in.

Everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Jeremy Burnett, 27, Mineral City, Ohio. Awarded the Purple Heart, also served the Navy. Lost his life in Germany with his family by his side.

An organ donor, saved the life of a 51-year-old. Loved fishing, hunting. Leaves behind parents, David and Michelle, stepmother Angie. Four sisters and one brother. Widow Stephanie. A member of the Texas National Guard.

Jeremy Barnett, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Texas and Georgia friends, Emily, Lori, John, Sharon, John.

Everyone, aren`t they a good-looking bunch?

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.