Saturday, April 16, 2011

Nancy Grace Transcript: Caylee Autopsy Photos to Come in at Murder Trial

Nancy Grace Transcript:  Caylee Autopsy Photos to Come in at Murder Trial 

Aired April 15, 2011 - 20:00:00   ET


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This young lady has got some -- definitely got a bit of a criminal past.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony stole checks and money from a friend, and she did this during a time when Caylee was missing.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Can someone let me -- come on!

My daughter has been missing for the last 31 days.

I can`t sit here and be crying every two seconds.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee? She says, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chloroform will have to be investigated as a potential cause of death.

Mommy's Little Girl: Casey Anthony and her Daughter Caylee's Tragic FateUNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She drugged the baby so she could go out and party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s well documented Casey Anthony liked to party.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zanny the nanny is really Xanax.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of her friends even says at parties, quote, "The kid slept through anything."

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: And you know who has her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her.

I have no clue where my daughter is? Yes, that is the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar.

CINDY ANTHONY: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 house from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored a hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

As tot mom sets up her defense to point the finger at grandfather George Anthony, grandmother Cindy changes her story under oath. Bombshell tonight. Torpedo to the defense. Little Caylee`s autopsy photos will come in at tot mom`s murder trial, nearly 300 photos, including images of little Caylee`s body, including where the little girl`s remains were found.

And tonight, we learn prosecutors will bring in tot mom`s behavior in the hours and the days after Caylee goes missing, all caught on camera, photos of tot mom partying into the wee hours in mini-skirts and push-up bras, her brand-new tattoo, "the good life," "La dolce (SIC) vita" tattoo, tot mom renting movies, stocking up on beer and sexy lingerie at Target, cashing forged checks at the bank.

Tonight, will key state scientific evidence, including human decomposition in tot mom`s car and a deadly stain in tot mom`s car trunk, be thrown out of evidence, the jury will never hear it? If pointing the finger at grandfather George doesn`t work, will tot mom claim she`s sick with post-traumatic stress syndrome? Could tot mom actually walk? The countdown to trial begins now.

Straight out to Kathi Belich, reporter with CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathy, tell me the latest.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV CORRESPONDENT: The latest today, prosecutors filed a motion to try to prevent the defense from calling two new mental health experts to testify about Casey`s state of mind. Prosecutors say the experts based their opinion solely on what Casey has told them. So prosecutors claim Casey would have to take the stand in her own defense before the judge could even consider letting these experts testify. And we`re told by our legal analysts that`s a huge risk for the defense.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich, joining us there in Orlando with WFTV. So you`re telling me that the defense has now officially moved to bring in psychiatric witnesses. What`s the theory? What is her alleged mental illness, Kathi?

BELICH: Well, the prosecutors say that these defense experts have really no opinion concerning any legally recognized defense or any recognized disorder of any kind, but the defense has claimed they want these experts to testify about Casey`s state of mind.

GRACE: Let me rephrase my question. To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." What is the defense? Come on! Are they saying post-traumatic stress syndrome? Are they saying she`s bipolar? Are they saying she`s legally insane, or did she have a good, old-fashioned crackup? What`s their defense?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": They are saying it is not a mental defense. They want these experts to take the stand in their case in chief to testify and explain her consciousness of guilt actions and her state of mind.

GRACE: Straight down to Steve Helling, staff writer with "People" magazine, joining us out of Orlando there, awaiting trial. The trial is looming. We are days now from the selection of a death penalty-qualified jury. Steve Helling, I don`t get it. Since when was tot mom mentally ill or with some kind of mental defect. Explain that to me.

STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Well, I wish I could, Nancy. But I -- it`s come out of nowhere, really, you know, because for the longest time, we`ve been hearing that there would be an explanation for why things were done the way they were done. We had no indication there would be any sort of -- any sort of things saying that she was -- there was anything wrong with her. So it came as a surprise to me.

GRACE: OK. Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, explain to me again, what is she saying her mental problem is, some kind of emotional problem? What is it?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that`s the thing, Nancy. We don`t know what this alleged mental problem is. What the state is saying is that -- and remember, they deposed these two doctors, Doctors Jeffrey Danziger (ph) and William White (ph). They deposed them last week. And the state is saying in their motion that these reports from these doctors do not indicate that Casey Anthony suffers from any type of recognized personality disorder. So they want their own expert to take a look at her.

GRACE: OK, here we go. I`ve got the motion right here in front of me. It`s called a motion in limine. And what that means in simple terms is that you find out the other side is going to call something and you don`t think it`s appropriate or legal, so you file a motion to stop it before it comes in. It`s kind of like a preemptive strike.

Jean Casarez, what have we learned from the state`s motion in limine? What kind of evidence are they trying to stop? Take a look, Jean. Take a look at these photos. Does she look mentally ill to you?

CASAREZ: The prosecution is stating in this motion that after deposing these two expert witnesses -- and they`re not done yet, they got to keep deposing them -- that they spoke with Casey Anthony. So they can`t get on the stand and talk about what Casey Anthony told them. If that comes into trial, Casey has to take the stand.

GRACE: OK. So there`s the legal conundrum. The prosecution is right. They`re saying, Hey, defense, you want to call psychiatrists to say she may or may not be mentally ill or have a mental defect, you got to put her on the stand so we can cross-examine her. There`s no way -- no way! -- you can mark my word on this -- they will ever put tot mom, Casey Anthony, on the stand. Why? Because she`s going to do the same thing she did to the police, take them on wild goose chase. The jury`s going to see right through it, and it will be all she wrote.

We are taking your calls. To kelly in Illinois. Hi, Kelly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good afternoon. Hello, Miss Nancy Grace. How are you?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. I am trying to figure out, why is it -- it angers me that Miss Casey seems to thinks that she can use these laws. I am a crime victim. And how do you use now all of a sudden your post-traumatic stress disorder? It just -- it amazes me. How is it that the laws -- how do we go through and make the laws work for us...

GRACE: Well, Kelly...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... to stop people who abuse them?

GRACE: Kelly -- here`s my question, Kelly in Illinois. If she does bring in post-traumatic stress disorder, what`s her stress from? What stress does she have? She sat on her mother and father`s sofa, didn`t work for years. They footed the bill for her and her daughter. She never named who the father was, never got a penny of child support out of him, nothing. What`s her stress? Come on! Help me out, defense attorneys Randy Kessler, Atlanta, Raymond Giudice, Atlanta, defense attorneys. What`s her stress, Giudice?

RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what I believe the defense is going to try to do is show that the post-traumatic stress syndrome is what made her act so bizarrely after being notified that her child was missing. That`s the dancing, the hotpants and all that. Now...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Ray.

GIUDICE: I`m just saying that`s what they`re trying to show.

GRACE: Wait just a moment.


GRACE: Liz, can you please show me the photos of tot mom and in her mini-skirt, her Nancy Sinatra boots and her push-up bra, please?. Because I want to hear you explain, Giudice, as we show these, how has she got a stress disorder. Explain that to me.

GIUDICE: Well, look, I`m not saying she does or doesn`t. I`m telling you what the defense is trying to use these...

GRACE: But how can they say that? It`s complete BS.

GIUDICE: Look -- listen...

GRACE: And there she is wearing the American flag, guzzling a mixed drink!

GIUDICE: Nancy, you and I both know that any of us can hire an expert witness to say about anything. Fortunately, the United States Supreme Court in the Dahlbert (ph) case has made it very difficult to get what`s called junk science into the courtroom. That`s what this judge is going to do is have a hearing to see if these two experts for the defense meet the qualifications...

GRACE: OK, stop! You know what?

GIUDICE: ... to allow their witnesses to...

GRACE: You know what, Ray? Ray! Ray!




GRACE: Look at the monitor!

GIUDICE: I`m looking.

GRACE: Look at the monitor! So everything you`re saying to me is like blah, blah, blah, blah...

GIUDICE: Well, because it`s the law, Nancy...

GRACE: ... because this girl is not...

GIUDICE: ... because I`m telling...

GRACE: ... mentally ill!

GIUDICE: Nancy...

GRACE: Patricia Saunders...

GIUDICE: Nancy...

GRACE: No, no, no, no. You had your chance.

GIUDICE: ... the judge may rule...

GRACE: OK, do I need to...

GIUDICE: The judge may agree with you.

GRACE: ... cut his mike? Do I need to?


GRACE: Do I need to cut your mike.

GIUDICE: No. I`m just saying...

GRACE: Dr. -- you`re still saying...

GIUDICE: Just saying what the law is.

GRACE: Dr. Saunders -- I want to see the pictures. Saunders, you`re the shrink. You got a long history of helping the mentally ill. Look at this. Is she sick?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: No, she`s not. She doesn`t have a mental illness, Nancy. My guess is that the defense is going to try and sneak in the back door that she has some kind of stress disorder because of the accident with Caylee and she didn`t know what to do. She doesn`t have post-traumatic stress disorder. And it`s obscene when we think about the veterans that have the real deal that this woman should pretend to have it.

GRACE: But here`s the catch-22. To you, Jean Casarez. If they say she has post-traumatic stress from the accident with Caylee, then that means she was there and she was a party to it.

CASAREZ: Then she`s admitting it. You`re right. Nancy, here`s what I don`t understand. How could that come into evidence in the defense case in chief?

GRACE: You are seeing photos that we now learn will come in to evidence, tot mom partying hearty in the days, even the hours after she says her little 2-year-old girl goes missing. And now we learn from a state`s motion in limine that the defense is planning to claim of some sort of mental defect, that tot mom has a mental defect! Does she look sick to you?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At that point, her attorney came, and that was about noon I think he got here. He told her what he thought and what had occurred. She did break down and cry in there. We could see that she was crying. He asked for tissue. She definitely was holding her head in her hands, crying.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you the skeletal remains are those of the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A human skull dropped out with hair around it and duct tape across the mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The bombshell and most damning evidence in the autopsy report is that Caylee Anthony`s killer, allegedly her mother, Casey, put several overlapping layers of duct tape over her mouth and jaw.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner of death in this case is homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the killer looked into her face, maybe her killer even saw her eyes as the tape was applied.

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll take this as far as I need to prove my innocence, which I guess is my point in all of this.


GRACE: And tonight, a motion from the state tips us off the defense is planning some sort of a mental defect defense on tot mom. But take a look at the pictures of her forging checks, loading up on beer and sexy lingerie at Target in the days, literally, the hours after she says her little 2-year-old daughter goes missing. She`s not sick. Oh, no! She`s living it up! In fact, she even gets a tattoo in those days her daughter goes missing.

And with us tonight is Danny Knight out of Orlando, the owner of Cast Iron Tattoo, where tot mom got her tattoo. Let`s see a shot, Liz, of the tattoo that she got. There you go, "Bella vita," the beautiful life. Danny Knight, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: I`m good. I`m concerned not so much with the tattoo, you did a great job, but when she came in, did you mention that -- did she mention anything about her daughter being missing?

KNIGHT: No, not at all. You know, she was a regular at the shop. She was in quite a bit. So when she came in without her daughter, I asked her where she was, and she just replied she was with the nanny.

GRACE: Had you ever seen a nanny?

KNIGHT: No. Never.

GRACE: Did the little girl, Caylee, ever mention a nanny?

KNIGHT: No. And she`d been coming in for a couple years.

GRACE: OK. Mr. Knight, no offense, sir, at all, but what is she doing bringing a little 2-year-old girl into a tattoo shop?

KNIGHT: Well, we`re not the standard shop. We`re family-owned and ran, and it`s very family-friendly.

GRACE: Repeat. What`s she doing bringing a 2-year-old girl into a tattoo shop? And why was tot mom in your shop so often over the last couple of years? Are there other tattoos I don`t know about?

KNIGHT: She`s got a small shamrock on her lower back, but that`s really about it. She came in with a small group of people, and any time anybody got one, they all came in together. And at the time, we had a piercer named Jonathan that she went to school with.

GRACE: A piercer?


GRACE: OK, what on tot mom`s body is pierced, dare I ask it?

KNIGHT: Nothing, to my knowledge. She never got pierced at the shop. She just went to school with the piercer.

GRACE: Now, the tattoo that she got, "Bella vita," what does that mean?

KNIGHT: Beautiful life.

GRACE: Did she tell you why she picked that out?

KNIGHT: No. You know, at the time, there was really no concern of it. You know, it wasn`t until later, when you looked back, that it was disturbing.

GRACE: Do you remember the date that she came into your shop?

KNIGHT: Not off the top of my head.

GRACE: In retrospect, do you recall when the little girl went missing?

KNIGHT: She was in the shop prior to the day the phone call she and her mother made about the child being missing.

GRACE: Have police questioned you? Do you plan to be a witness at the trial?

KNIGHT: Yes, I`ve already been subpoenaed by the prosecution.

GRACE: With me is Dan Knight, owner of Cast Iron Tattoo, where tot mom got her "Bella vita," the beautiful life, tattoo in literally the days after the little girl goes missing. What kind of a mood was she in, Mr. Knight, when she came in? Was she upset, concerned, pensive? Did she cry?

KNIGHT: No, she seemed as normal as any other time she`d been in there with or without Caylee.

GRACE: So these are in the days after she says somebody swipes her 2- year-old girl, and she never cried, never revealed to you the girl was missing, and in fact, sat there for a couple of hours, I presume, getting "the beautiful life" tattooed on her shoulder?

KNIGHT: She had had the tattoo the last time I`d seen her. She was making an appointment for the following Saturday.

GRACE: What did she want done on the following Saturday?

KNIGHT: She hadn`t discussed it. We were going to draw it up Saturday when she came in.



CASEY ANTHONY: Tell him I ate cole slaw. I hated bologna. I`ve been eating bologna and cheese on occasion.

Every day, I`ve been beating myself up about this.


CASEY ANTHONY: Every single day.


CASEY ANTHONY: Not knowing where to go, what to do, running in circles, literally, because that`s all I can do at this point.

Oh, man, I don`t want to start crying.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there was no type of emotion whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anything, we saw a couple smiles and a couple of smirks and no tears.


GRACE: The countdown to tot mom`s murder trial in the death of her 2- year-old little girl, Caylee, starts now. Jury selection set to start in just days.

With us tonight, taking your calls, Danny Knight, the owner of Cast Iron Tattoo, where tot mom saunters in to get a tattoo that says "Bella vita" on July 3. Her daughter, she says, goes missing June 16th, so two weeks later, she gets this tattoo. She goes back in July 14th to discuss even more tattoos on her body. She`s arrested 48 hours later, on July 16th.

We are taking your calls. To Linda in New York. Hi, Linda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I first want to say hello to one multiple mom from another. I`m a mom of triplets.

GRACE: God bless you, Linda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He most certainly did. You have it easy!

GRACE: Tell it. I know. You know, I always wanted four children, and sometimes at the end of the day, you know, I don`t know how I would even consider it with the two that I`ve got. So god bless you with your triplets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. I`m going to...

GRACE: What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... school, too, and it`s (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Oh, Lord!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s worth every second. Anyway, if Caylee`s were remains skeletalized, how would her manner of death be found?

GRACE: OK, if her remains were skeletonized, how would what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner of her death be found.

GRACE: That`s a great question. Out to Steve Helling, staff writer with "People" magazine. Explain how they determined cause of death.

HELLING: Well, that`s the problem right now, is that there are certain things that they can`t explain because...

GRACE: Hold on. Let me back it up. Why did they believe chloroform was used, Steve Helling?

HELLING: Well, obviously, because of the searches on Casey`s computer that were for chloroform, as well as neck breaking and some other scary things, and then the high concentration of what appears to be chlorine -- or chloroform in the trunk of the car. So all that put together makes them believe that.

GRACE: You know, he`s right, Jean Casarez. From the skeletalized body alone, they can`t tell cause of death. But they do know the skull was wrapped in duct tape across the mouth and I believe partially over the nose. And then chloroform turned up in the car trunk, and you`ve got the computer with searches for how to make homemade chloroform.

CASAREZ: And this is why it`s so critical for the prosecution that chloroform come into this trial because the prosecutors have to prove aggravated child abuse if they want a felony murder conviction.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After about 7:00 when I still hadn`t heard anything I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey gets a tattoo on her shoulder that reads Bella Vita, good life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- about a new boyfriend in New York (inaudible) the child that wasn`t even came up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wasn`t sure what I would say about not knowing where Caylee was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 3-year-old daughter Caylee is missing. What is she doing? She`s out buying lingerie. Check out the video here. It`s checking out at Target buying food, beer, the lingerie, of course. Thousands of photos, photos like that Casey partying it up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of these photos are from the time when Caylee disappeared.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There you see, tot mom urinating in a public parking lot. That`s classy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- innocent angel baby just so she could out and be a party girl.


GRACE: We are taking your calls. Back to Danny Knight owner of Cast Iron Tattoo where tot mom got that Bella Vita tattoo just a few days after she claimed her child was kidnapped. But she kept it a secret to do her own investigation. What did she say about her car, Danny?

KNIGHT: She told me that she had borrowed a friend`s car. She had to go pick them up at the airport coming in from Puerto Rico on a trip she was supposed to go on, but couldn`t because of the baby and even though the luggage wouldn`t fit in her car.

GRACE: Did she mention where her car was?


GRACE: So much luggage that she -- so much luggage that she needed a different car.

KNIGHT: Yes. Really looking back wasn`t much bigger than her car.

GRACE: What kind of a car did she drive to your shop?

KNIGHT: It was a small compact four door.

GRACE: OK. She said she couldn`t go on the trip to Puerto Rico because of Caylee, the little baby?

KNIGHT: Yes, responsibilities as a mother she said.

GRACE: You know, that`s very interesting that she said that. Out to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. A lot of people say why, why would she do this? State doesn`t have to show motive. But here you hear her saying I wanted to go on this trip with my friends to Puerto Rico, but I couldn`t because of Caylee.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s like the original statement when Caylee was born that she reportedly made to her mother. She wanted to put her up for adoption and her mother insisted no that she keep her. She didn`t want this child. She didn`t like her. She sure as heck didn`t love her. She was an inconvenience.

GRACE: Now joining us. A special guest out of Orlando, Bill Sheaffer, former prosecutor and WFTV legal analyst. Bill, thank you for being with us. What is your analysis of what`s happening in the courtroom?

BILL SHEAFFER, FORMER PROSECUTOR, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the state has moved to cut off this defense of the fact that she`s suffering from some mental disorder because, really, what the defense is trying to do is get her story out without putting her on the witness stand and subjecting her to a rigorous cross-examination.

By the way, all the evidence is going to come in, all of these pieces to the puzzle are going before this jury and when you piece this puzzle together it`s going to clearly show the picture of the killer and it`s going to be Casey Anthony`s picture.

GRACE: You know, Bill Sheaffer, for everyone joining us live Orlando tonight. You`re saying all this evidence is going to come in. I disagree. I don`t think the judge will allow over 300 photos, autopsy photos in.

I think he`s going to throw a lot of them out because they may be duplicative, because they may not prove that much. I think some of them are going to come in.

Also what about the party pics, Bill Sheaffer? I really believe the jury has a right to see these because it shows her frame of mind in the days and even hours after her little girl goes missing.

SHEAFFER: Well, firstly, they are not trying to get in 300 photographs of the autopsy. OK. Secondly, what was your question secondly?

GRACE: Party pics.

SHEAFFER: The party pics that will come in are the pictures that were taken during the time that the child went missing because they are inconsistent with the mother of a child who has been kidnapped and it goes to her state of mind and, again, another piece to the puzzle.

You know what we can`t do, Nancy. What we can`t do is zero in on any one particular piece of this puzzle. It is a strong circumstantial evidence case and all of these pieces fit and interlock one to another and that`s how the state`s going to prove this case, that`s what`s going to be her downfall.

GRACE: What about -- let`s see, Liz, the video of her at target where she`s stocking up on beer and sexy lingerie and this is literally in the days after she says her daughter is stolen at a public park.

Unleash the lawyers, not only do we have Bill Sheaffer, former prosecutor, WFTV legal analyst joining us here in Orlando (inaudible) in this courthouse many, many times in front of this judge.

Take a look at this, Bill Sheaffer, Raymond, Randy Kessler. There`s tot mom, let`s see. What is she buying? There you go. What is that? Six-pack of beer. Some chips. Plenty of food to take over to her boyfriend`s house as if she`s cooking.

Let me see. There`s a little lettuce in a bag. Yes and some sexy lingerie. Explain to me what`s the mental defect again?

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know both side have problems here, Nancy.

GRACE: No, no, answer my question.

KESSLER: The mental defect? It`s denial. She`s in a state of denial. She`s trying to act normal to make her life feel normal when she`s in this traumatic state. Her child is missing or dead and if she`s innocent then she`s trying to do something that`s normal and to her that was normal.

GRACE: Out to our bounty hunter who bailed tot mom out of jail. She offered to bail her out a second time under the condition she`s tell the truth. Of course, she refused. Leonard, thank you for being with us. Leonard joining us from Sacramento, California. Leonard, do you expect to be a witness at trial?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No, I don`t. I don`t think either the prosecution or the defense will call me as a witness.

GRACE: Why do you say that?

PADILLA: Well, because I don`t the defense doesn`t want certain things that we were privy too on the table and I don`t think the prosecution needs us.

GRACE: I wouldn`t make a prediction on this because after the defense puts its case out, the state will need a rebuttal case. So I would not foreclose you being a witness in the rebuttal case, Leonard Padilla.

PADILLA: OK, the case in chief I don`t believe. The rebuttal case is a different thing because I think they will bring in certain things. The defense -- here`s the thing. The defense is going to do an end run on them. They`re not going to go with what everybody thinks.

They`re going to try to blame the situation on a drowning, on George, on a diaper, with pool cleaner that turned into chloroform in the trunk. That`s the way they are going to go. They just haven`t brought it up right now publicly. That`s the way they will go. You watch, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, I`m going to watch. I`ll hold your feet to the fire. Back to Danny Knight, the owner of Cast Iron Tattoo where tot mom got the Bella Vita tattoo in the hours after Caylee allegedly goes missing. When you saw Caylee, when her mother would bring her to the tattoo parlor what was their relationship with tot mom? How did they interact?

KNIGHT: Looking back, you know, that`s the scariest part. She was a very attentive mother.

GRACE: What do you mean by that?

KNIGHT: Very playful, always concerned where she was, holding her hand. Whatever she was doing that baby was with her.

GRACE: You know a lot of people ask where did it go wrong? Her relationship with her 2-year-old little girl. The state says why does it matter? Little Caylee is dead and her mother, tot mom is charged with murder one.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sticker over the mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First one piece then two then three so that no breath was possible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I spent the day almost completely by myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love her and I support her.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter has been missing for the last 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was sweaty in bed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just completely and utterly miserable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tried to contact her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee was murdered. Her body was disposed of like trash.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to be looked as a victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s like a chameleon when she`s with a guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So frustrated with all of this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live straight out to Amanda in Louisiana. Hi, Amanda.

CALLER: Hi, Miss Grace.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: I want to know if the sticker that was placed on Caylee`s mouth is going be admissible in the court and if they have been able to lift DNA off of that sticker?

GRACE: Good question. What about it, Jean Casarez.

JEAN CASAREZ: It was a sticker that was found at the crime scene. That should be coming in, but as far as that sticky residue that an FBI analyst found on the duct tape that was eaten up during testing. We don`t know if her testimony as to what she saw would come in to this trial.

GRACE: But why wouldn`t it? Why wouldn`t it come in to testimony, Jean?

CASAREZ: Well, the defense has argued that it`s there. Nobody can see it. Nobody else saw it so it`s a figment of her imagination.

GRACE: But that is for the jury to decide. Under the law it`s my belief that the scientist will come to the stand and will testify to that and then they can cross-examine the scientist as much as they want to.

But that`s for a jury to decide not for the lawyer to decide. Let me ask you about what`s going to happen, jury selection is set to start in days. And the judge really believes that they can start striking the jury and then say in less than 10 business days they will have a death penalty qualified jury?

SHEAFFER: Absolutely. I have all the faith in the world that if any judge can get a jury in that period of too many it`s going to be Judge Perry. He`s going to put their feet to the fire. By the way, he cut off any shenanigans with the defense.

And delaying this trial by not selecting the jury because as he said what we`ll do is we`ll bring you back to Orlando, you don`t get a jury here. We`ll go to yet another undisclosed location. We`re getting a jury. This trial is not going to be delayed because of the defense inability to accept a jury.

GRACE: OK. Let me get this straight. The judge is going start jury selection and within about six to seven business days, not even that many, they are going have a death qualified jury. Mr. Sheaffer, do you believe that?

SHEAFFER: Is that a question?


SHEAFFER: Absolutely, I believe in that.

GRACE: I know this is a no nonsense judge.

SHEAFFER: Don`t forget we`re in Florida. It`s not that hard to get a death qualified jury in Florida much less the only hurdle is going to be get us to a venue that doesn`t watch your show, that doesn`t listen to all of the media coverage, does not know who I am or any of the other parties in this case. They are going to go to a jurisdiction that they have not heard about --

GRACE: Where they don`t have cable TV. Come on, Sheaffer, everybody has got cable TV, but the reality is this. Even if -- unleash the other lawyers.

It`s not a question as to whether the jurors have seen coverage. The question is, having seen coverage, does that, will you be able to render a fair and impartial verdict that speaks the truth. That`s the question.

Because come on, think about O.J. Simpson`s double murder trial, they all knew about the case but they promised that they could be impartial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, you may actually want it to be in a place where they`ve seen it so much that they`re just tired of the story and they are ignoring it and they`re desensitized to it.

You know, that maybe better instead of the other. Everybody has heard about this story and you`re not going to find a jury that hasn`t heard it or seen it or watched it or read about it.

GRACE: So tonight, we learned the defense may try to bring some type of mental defect on tot mom. To Andrew J. Scott, former chief of police, Boca Raton, Florida, president of AJS Consulting. He`s joining us out of Miami, Florida tonight.

And here`s my question. We know what she did when she told the cops what happened. She took them on a goose chase that went hours and hours. Even taking them through security to the parking lot into Universal Studios, down the hall and just as the cops put their hand on a door knob she goes OK, I don`t work here. I lied.

If they had to put her on the stand to show a mental defect and she starts up trying to lead the jury down the garden path what will happen?

ANDREW J. SCOTT, FORMER CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FLORIDA: My thoughts it`s going to work out very well for her. You know, clearly she has some type of sociopathic tendencies that allows her to compartmentalize the loss of her daughter, continue to gallivant around during the evening hours or the day with regards to not paying attention her daughter being missing.

Clearly the jury is not going buy that and you put that in the totality of the other pieces to this puzzle, it`s going to be very difficult to put one over on the jury, I believe.

GRACE: You know a lot of people are wondering about cause of death and why the car trunk, why chloroform. It`s very obvious, Dr. Patricia Saunders that she was living the free and single life.

There were many, many nights that Casey and George, excuse me, Cindy and George Anthony were not taking care, were not babysitting Caylee. Tot mom had her, she was out partying. It was the babysitter chloroform in the trunk.

SAUNDERS: Yes, and it just reflects again on her callousness that either that or --

GRACE: To Dr. Bill Manion, our medical examiner from Burlington County, New Jersey, does the way the body was disposed of the bag, the duct tape, work against the accidental death theory?

DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTRY, NEW JERSEY: Well, it remains all circumstantial evidence and if the defense is that she dropped the child by accident. The child got hung by accident playing with ropes while she was out playing with the cords or something.

If there`s some accidental theory that they want to come up we can`t tell from the way the body was found, the way the child really died. All we can tell is there are no fractures. There`s no bullet wound. There are no gunshot wounds. There`s no stab. No injuries to the bones.

GRACE: But, Dr. Bill Manion, in all the cases that you have handled, when there`s an accident all death, does the mother wrap the body in trash bags and throw the body on the street?

MANION: Well, if she was out partying and came home and found the baby had suffocated by mistake, she might panic and do that.

GRACE: Well, why not call 911?

MANION: Because she had abandoned her child. She would be charged with endangerment.

GRACE: And now CNN Heroes.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee Marie became a CNN Hero in 2008 when she was a sophomore in high school. At the time her organization, tune for troops had shipped more than 200,000 CDs and DVDs to U.S. military members overseas. It was Caylee`s way to say thank you.

CAYLEE MARIE: Tunes for the Troops have gone so far these past five years. There`s absolutely nothing that I would change because it has made a difference in so many people`s lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, Caylee`s on a military ROTC scholarship at Tennessee Tech University, which has become the new home of her organization.

CAYLEE MARIE: Tunes for Troops is now part of the service learning. There`s basically a staff and student workers that volunteer for community service hours. This way the troops will be able to continue even once I graduate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This week, volunteers gather to pack the latest shipment of CDs and DVDs, which included a special milestone, the group`s one millionth disc.

CAYLEE MARIE: One of the guitarists from Leonard Skinner showed up at our packing party to actually pack the one millionth CD.

Once I graduate, I will be able to know that it`s in wonderful hands. Who knows, once I am an officer in the United States Army, I could potentially benefit from Tunes in Troops getting CDs and DVD. I mean, that`s pretty cool.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody`s letting me speak.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know she sees herself as a victim, but that`s the same denial she`s done since the beginning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no one to comfort me but myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s completely like sociopathic personality pattern.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom, I know what - you guys understanding. I`m honestly a victim and keeping me here, you`re not helping me help myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She really believes she`s the victim.


GRACE: We are taking your calls, live out to Melanie in New Mexico. Hi, Melanie.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I just want to say that you`re amazing soul and your twins are just so precious. Dear, my question is, why is it so hard for everyone to see, especially Casey`s parents, that she has something to do with this?

She totally has something to do with this and furthermore, I cannot get any rest at night because my soul literally stands guard over my precious boys while they sleep. I couldn`t even imagine not knowing where my precious boys were at for one second, let alone for a month or two like she claims.

I mean, honestly, as a mother and as a person who would gladly give my life for any precious child, I just don`t understand. Please help me understand.

GRACE: Melanie, in New Mexico, the reason you don`t understand is because it`s not true. It`s not true. Jean Casarez, weigh in.

CASAREZ: I don`t think we can get inside the heads of George and Cindy Anthony because remember with all the altercations they had. They lived together in that home and they lived to support their daughter and at night I bet they wake up wanting justice for Caylee.

GRACE: Lawyers, if they stack the jury with a bunch of mothers, what do you think is going to happen?


GRACE: Guidice?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Melanie reflects that I think the feeling of any parent, male or female or any grandma or any grandfather. It`s a problem for the defense.

GRACE: What about it, Kessler?

KESSLER: They still have problems. Where is the eyewitness? Where is the motive? You know, they`re still problems.

GRACE: I knew I could count on you, Randy. OK. Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Christopher Morningstar, 27, San Antonio, Texas, killed in Iraq. Awarded National Defense Service medal, loved outdoors, barbecues, time with friends, his children. Leaves behind grieving mother Holly, daughter, Victoria, son, Wyatt. Christopher Morningstar, American Hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you and a special good night from the New York control room. Good night, Brett, Liz, Rosie. Who is on the end? There you go, Dana.

And happy birthday to our Georgia friend Jim. Loves travel and concerts and favorite music is country western and gospel. Never met a stranger. Happy birthday, Jim. Everyone, I`ll see you Monday night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern and until then, good night, friend.


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