Saturday, June 18, 2011

Casey Anthony case June 17, 2011: Testimony centers on bug expert, Nancy Grace transcripts

Casey Anthony case June 17, 2011: Testimony centers on bug expert, Nancy Grace transcripts

Mommy's Little Girl: Casey Anthony and her Daughter Caylee's Tragic FateOn June 17, 2011, the defense in the Casey Anthony case had their second full day of calling witnesses; they spent the day speaking to bug expert Tim Huntington. Tim Huntington presented testimony for the defense as to why it seemed unlikely in his opinion that Caylee Anthony’s body was in the trunk of Casey’s white Pontiac Sunbird.  Casey Anthony maintains her innocence in the first degree murder trial, but the prosecution believes that Casey administered chloroform to Caylee before suffocating her with duct tape and placing her in three garbage bags and a laundry bag. 

 It was a long testimony and there were many breaks throughout the day for the jury.  Though Tim Huntington stated that there should have been more blow fires in the car, if Caylee Anthony’s body was decomposing in the trunk,  he ultimately testified that the area where she died would smell like human decomposition.
It was a bitter and contentious cross examination and by the time prosecutor Jeff Ashton was through, the defense’s bug expert had made two key points for the state: the smell of decomposition in the car and the news that the evidence showed Dr. Huntington that Caylee had only been dead for two or three days before her body was placed in the wooded area off of Suburban Drive.

You may read Nancy Grace’s full transcript for June 17, 2011 below.

Nancy Grace Transcript: June 17, 2011

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she`s got nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her. Tot mom gets a sexy tattoo in the days after Caylee goes missing, then throws a pizza party at the tattoo parlor.

After the defense reveals to a stunned jury brother Lee actually tested for Caylee`s paternity, bombshell tonight. Did tot mom, Casey Anthony, reveal the location of Caylee`s remains before the body is found? A defense bug expert says tot mom`s lawyers call him before there`s even an ID of Caylee`s tiny bones.

And tot mom defense golden ticket, Jose Baez`s last bad faith attempt to create reasonable doubt -- tonight, we locate that defense mystery witness, the convicted felon whose number pops up repeatedly on father George Anthony`s phone. Is it a big sham by the tot mom defense? Mystery witness Vasco Thompson with us live. This as lead defense attorney Jose Baez blasted in court for texting during testimony. And police swarm the tot mom courthouse.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They start out as eggs. The eggs hatch out into larvae, which in the case of flies, we call them maggots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pizza full of maggots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maggots found in the trunk of the car.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Full of maggots, and it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The maggots start out small, same way that a butterfly starts out, a caterpillar starts out small.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are speculating that remains were there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they eat. And that`s their sole function, they eat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the car, to clarify, clear as day, I smelled it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First stage larva.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you write a little bit bigger?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s try it`s again. That`s pretty small.


CINDY ANTHONY: It`s just -- it is what it is. It is a bag of whatever.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Did tot mom, Casey Anthony, reveal the location of Caylee`s remains there in the woods before the body is found?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The decompositional fluid stain -- very distinguishable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flies were there. It most likely was decompositional fluid.

CINDY ANTHONY: It stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) into maggots. They wiggle their way out. They`re soft and squishy, just like a butterfly is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tossed in a field to rot in bags.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I know I`m running out of options.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not care for Mr. Baez standing on his head, standing on one leg. Let`s stick to the facts. Be professional.

VASCO THOMPSON, ON DEFENSE WITNESS LIST: I have no idea who George Anthony is.


THOMPSON: I just met him, seen him on TV.


THOMPSON: I never talked to George Anthony.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I am talking!

THOMPSON: And I don`t know why they got me involved in all this mess.

CASEY ANTHONY: If they have nothing positive to say, they need to shut up.


GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.

Bombshell in the courtroom today. Did tot mom actually reveal the location of Caylee`s remains before the body was found? And what does that mean for the defense?

Gary Tuchman, CNN correspondent, joining us in Orlando. He`s been in the courtroom from the get-go. And of course, you can see Gary every night on Anderson Cooper "AC 360" at 10:00 o`clock Eastern.

Gary, what do you make of the bombshell in the courtroom today that the defense bug expert was apparently hired before the body, the remains of little Caylee were even identified?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was bizarre and suspicious. Dr. Tim Huntington from Concordia College in Nebraska, an expert on bugs, said he was hired by the defense December 11th. And we all thought, Wait, that was before the body was identified.

What we think might happen, Nancy, is the defense, if pressed upon it, might say, Well, we hired him because we had him look at the car, and they were examining the car before the body was identified. But it`s very suspicious that it was just before the body was identified, the same day the body was found, but before it was positively identified.

GRACE: You know, Natisha Lance, this brings to mind tot mom`s reaction when it was rumored -- and there were news reports. Remember, she was in jail, and it was rumored a body had been found -- as compared to all the other times people thought there had been a Caylee sighting or thought the body had been found. She had no reaction whatsoever. On this day, before the body was identified, do you recall her reaction behind bars?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I do, Nancy. This was from the interview from Tammy Unser (ph), who was the officer who was in jail with Casey Anthony. She was brought to the health unit, and there was news reports that were on in front of her. And what Unser said is that Casey Anthony began to become very agitated. She said that her constraints were becoming tightened around her. She had shallow breathing. She started to break out in hives. And she asked for her restraints to be loosened, although Tammy Unser said that that could not be done at that time.

GRACE: What you`re seeing right now, and what Natisha Lance is describing, is part of what tot mom saw on TV behind bars. She sees a scene where the police are just getting there. There`s a rumor a body`s been found just 15 houses from the Anthony home. Unlike all the other times that there were sightings of Caylee, that they thought her body may have been found, and there was no reaction from tot mom whatsoever, this time, she doubles over, allegedly begins to hyperventilate -- this is before the body is identified -- says that her handcuffs are too tight, her hands are turning red, same thing echoed here.

To Robyn Walensky, WDBO. The significance -- that this bug expert, Huntington, says that he was contacted before Caylee`s remains were identified is significant!

ROBYN WALENSKY, WDBO: It really is, Nancy. The timeline is extremely troubling here because it leads us to believe that Casey Anthony clearly knew something. Why in the world would they go out and get this bug guy, when, you know, no one else in the world knew that it was little Caylee there in the woods? The body had not yet been ID`d.

GRACE: Joining us, a special guest, special correspondent Diane Dimond with "Newsweek" and the DailyBeast. She`s been in the courtroom from the get-go. Diane, weigh in.

DIANE DIMOND, "NEWSWEEK"/DAILYBEAST: Well, you know, this is just one of those bizarre things about this case. And there are so many. There are just so many. You know, as I sat and watched the bug man testify today, I kept thinking to myself, Are they insane? He`s talking about an experiment he did in Nebraska with a pig in the trunk of a car, not a child. He did it in Nebraska in the fall, not the summer. And he`s saying that there were no maggots in the car in Florida, although he hadn`t even seen the car in Florida, only photographs.

To me this is one of the strangest defense tactics I have ever seen, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, also, Gary Tuchman, we heard an expert on the stand talk about how the bugs had actually broken through and gotten into the passenger compartment. What`s the significance of that?

TUCHMAN: Well, the whole thing about this argument -- I agree with this fact that a pig in Nebraska and not in the same car -- I mean, when you do scientific experiments, you need controls. There were no controls in this whatsoever. So I`m not sure what significance the jury will see here.

But what the prosecution is saying, that it`s all a moot point anyway because they believe little Caylee`s body was in a bag in the car and it wouldn`t leave fluids anyway. What this guy today is trying to intimate to the jury is that there weren`t enough fluids in this car, therefore, there wasn`t a dead body in the car. The prosecution said she was in a bag, there wouldn`t be fluids anyway.

GRACE: Gary Tuchman, you have been in the courtroom from the get-go. Is it true -- yesterday we obviously saw the defense start off with a whimper and not a bang. Four people were kicked out of the courtroom for falling asleep during Jose Baez`s demonstration. Let`s see a shot of that -- that easel he`s got going on. It`s like a mad scientist scribbling all over a big -- there you go. And it looks like maybe football plays.

Is the jury able to take all of this in?

TUCHMAN: The jury seems a little bored, but they`re paying attention. They are not falling asleep. But you talk about the people going -- and I feel sorry for the people. This is very important for a lot of people to watch this in person. They`ve flown from all over the country to be here. I don`t begrudge them the right to see that. But there are very strict rules. If you fall asleep, they`re going to kick you out.

So today, for example, within the first hour-and-a-half of testimony, five people were kicked out for falling asleep, two people were kicked out for talking. There`s only 50 people in the court. So 7 out of 50 people - - more than 10 percent of the people who waited all night, in some cases more than 12 hours, were kicked out of the court.

GRACE: And now to Paul Penzone, former sergeant, Phoenix PD, child advocate. Paul, weigh in.

PAUL PENZONE, FMR. SGT., PHOENIX PD: Well, I don`t find that information damning in and of itself, but it is curious and it adds to a lot of the areas. If you look at this case...

GRACE: Curious?

PENZONE: ... from the defense side...

GRACE: Put him up.

PENZONE: Well...

GRACE: Put him up! Put him up!

PENZONE: Absolutely.

GRACE: Paul, the defense hires a bug expert before they even identify the body, and that`s just curious to you?

PENZONE: The reason I state that...

GRACE: To add onto the fact that we know the Anthony PI, private investigator, had been out to the scene where the body was ultimately found before police found it -- I mean, put two and two together, Penzone!

PENZONE: I`m with you 100 percent, Nancy. Believe me. I`m just trying to play the...

GRACE: More than curious!

PENZONE: ... objective investigator. And with a decent defense team, they could probably answer to that, that might be believable.

But here`s what I have to say. I feel as though the prosecution is treating this, like, you know, in the courtroom, like it`s chess, a very strategic method to trying to accomplish the outcome. It`s the defense team that looks like they`re playing checkers. A lot of what they throw out there, a lot of things that they`ve done have been so rudimentary that it undermines any kind of legitimate defense.

So I`m confident and I feel good about what the prosecution has done. But I`m always fearful in the courtroom because all you need is one juror. So I agree with you 100 percent, Nancy. But I just think the defense team is very -- they lack the expertise to really explain out (ph) things to defend their client.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it all began when Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the people come out there and crucify you for this because of all of the lies that you`ve been telling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a walking, living soap opera.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never been in a courtroom like this!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go! Let him go. This is ridiculous!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outrageous outburst.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is rowdy.




CASEY ANTHONY: I`m protecting our family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the rest of your frickin` life.



GEORGE ANTHONY: I am talking!



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll ask you all individually and collectively to render a verdict of not guilty.


GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, charged in the alleged death of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.

Back to Robyn Walensky, WDBO. What happened? Why was there such an outburst that police swarming the courthouse today?

WALENSKY: Nancy, I`m out there every single day at 3:30 in the morning for my radio job. What was different about this morning compared to the last two weeks is that people started lining up last night at 7:00 or 8:00 o`clock PM. So they had been out there all night.

There are two guys that came into the line. The people that are in the line, like that guy we call "neck brace man," they actually patrol themselves. There`s a lady that they call the "Sharpie lady," and she takes a black magic marker, Nancy, and she marks number one, number two, number three, up to number 100 of the people. So the line patrols itself.

And these two outsiders came in. One guy ended up in a headlock, and then three women got in on it, while one woman all covered with tattoos -- cops called to the scene. They had to break up the whole thing. But we`re told that no one was actually arrested.

GRACE: Let`s try Lindsey in Utah. Lindsey, are you there?


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, me and my mom love you! We wish you were prosecuting this case.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. My question is -- her mom -- is she agreeing with the defense`s claim? Is she still on her side? I mean, we haven`t really heard of allegations against her dad and brother. You know, what does her mom think?

GRACE: You know, Diane Dimond, Lindsey`s question is extremely pertinent because of all of the witnesses called to the stand, Cindy Anthony has been called more than any other witness and I think has made the greatest impact.

DIMOND: Right.

GRACE: Have you seen a change in George and Cindy Anthony`s demeanor on the stand since this case started?

DIMOND: Not so much George. He is a very tightly-wound fellow. You can talk to him in the hallway -- or as we were walking to lunch one day, he and I had a conversation. But Cindy -- I have seen a change in her while she`s testifying.

Nancy, she was asked one day by Jose Baez, Didn`t you realize that these people were her imaginary friends? And Cindy -- it`s like a lightbulb went on over her head, and she sat back in the chair and she said, I guess I now realize they were imaginary friends. It`s like she`s suddenly coming to a realization that many other people already knew, that her daughter is a big, fat liar.

GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us out of New York. We have seen a subtle shifting in her demeanor on the stand. What do you think, Caryn Stark?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that what`s happening, Nancy, is she`s becoming more and more aware of who her daughter really is. It`s very hard, when you`re a mother, to be able to see that there`s that kind of a problem. And now she can`t be in denial because it`s all too evident that so much doesn`t make sense and that something is really wrong, particularly with her turning against her own family.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The decompositional fluid stain -- most of the studies that I`ve conducted and even cases that I`ve worked on have been in outdoor environments. This same fluid reaches into the ground, very distinguishable. My colleagues at the University of Nebraska work to identify places where bodies have decomposed, specifically looking at the presence or absence of these decompositional fluids.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We refer to that in forensic entomology as the post-mortem interval.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s out there somewhere, and her rotten body is starting to decompose.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body is very decomposed.

CASEY ANTHONY: The thought of that every day makes me sick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The flies were there. The larvae were there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lovely breakfast conversation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they will colonize a dead human.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to be just as she was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The same way they do any other dead animal.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve all seen roadkill sitting on the side of the road.

GEORGE ANTHONY: How dare you say that about my granddaughter!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) see little green-and-blue flies buzzing around it.


GRACE: We are live outside the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony. She`s on trial for murder one in the death of her little girl, 2-year-old Caylee, Caylee`s remains found just 15 houses from the Anthony home.

Bombshell in the courtroom today, an unintentional slip by one of the defense witnesses that the bug expert called by the defense was actually contacted before Caylee`s remains ever identified. So how did they know this was Caylee unless tot mom told them?

Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer, Bradford Cohen, defense attorney, Miami. What about it, Anne Bremner?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what we`ve already heard, Nancy. I mean, it could relate to the trunk. You know, when she was on video, when she heard about the discovery of a body, she was hyperventilating. We`ve already heard about the description from the jail staff at the time. So her reaction is -- there`s one kid missing in that area. They find a kid pretty close to her house, skeletal remains. So you know, that timing is not as suspect as it seems, at least in my mind, and not that bad for the defense.

GRACE: OK, Bradford, I hear Anne Bremner going back to her reaction behind bars. But my question is not about that. My question is about the bug expert that the defense brings on today, that clearly was hired before Caylee`s remains were ever identified. I got a problem with that!

BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I know you have a problem with that. And there`s a reasonable inference there, but there`s also a reasonable inference that he was hired to examine the trunk of the car, that an individual was found -- a kid was found where there`s a kid missing, that`s three blocks away from Casey Anthony`s house, there`s an inference that that`s probably little Caylee.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Premeditation is the essential element that distinguishes first degree murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search results, C-H-L-O-R-O-F-O-R-M, chloroform, neck breaking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duct tape anywhere attached to that child`s face.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think after this long she would still be local?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Decompositional fluid ring here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a possibility.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Decompositional stain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dead bodies very, very quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your gut tells you she`s close.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These white spots are maggots.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a greasy stain.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know in my heart she`s not far.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Body fluids, body fats.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: `m sorry, I`ll wait. Counsel is busy texting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how many times, I`m not going to say this ever again. I do not care if Mr. Baez is standing on his head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have nothing to hide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standing on one leg.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, let`s just stick with the facts and be professional.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have conducted myself in the most professional manner that I possibly can.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are in the midst of the defense case. So far about nine people have been kicked out for falling asleep.

Welcome back. We`re live at the ORANGE COUNTY COURTHOUSE as the case against tot mom, Casey Anthony charged in the alleged murder of her 2-year- old little girl rages on.

So far, police swarm the courthouse today after a fistfight breaks out. People trying to get into the courtroom to see what zany defense, what story is going to be foisted upon the jury today?

And today we hear from a bug expert, but not necessarily what the defense wanted or intended for him to say. It slipped out that he was hired before Caylee`s remains ever even identified.

We are taking your calls live, but right now, a special guest is joining us, along with Matt Morgan, defense attorney, joining us out of Orlando.

The golden ticket, the key to the defense, an attempt to raise reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury. A convicted felon with a serious and violent crime on his history, kidnapping, eight years hard time.

Vasco Thompson, that felon, the defense suggests by putting him on the witness list, by letting it slip out that he has made many contacts with father George Anthony.

That somehow he and George Anthony, father George Anthony, the ex-cop, who raised Caylee as his own child had cooked up some scheme to, what, hide her body, to hire some guy, some convicted felon to do his dirty work for him? Is that where they were headed?

Well, today, Mr. Thompson is with us live and he doesn`t know anything not only about some scheme to hide Caylee`s body, but about George Anthony at all.

Has this guy been unwittingly dragged into tot mom`s vortex, just like Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez? OK, to Vasco Thompson. I know you`ve got your lawyer with you, Matt Morgan. Great reputation he`s got to speak for you.

But Mr. Thompson, I want to ask you, without your lawyer butting in and trying to talk for you, which is his job, I get it, what do you know about father George Anthony?

VASCO THOMPSON, SURPRISE DEFENSE WITNESS: Well, how are you doing first, Nancy? Glad you have me on.

GRACE: Thank you.

THOMPSON: I want to thank my Lord and Jesus Christ, my savior in my life for giving me a chance to talk to you to straighten this matter out.

I don`t know anything about George Anthony. I never heard from him. I never talked to him. I`ve just seen him on TV and they dragging me into this for some reason I don`t know.

GRACE: You know, Mr. Thompson, I know all about your arrest record, about your conviction record. But what you`re telling me has the ring of truth. How did you get dragged into this? What happened?

THOMPSON: Nancy, I`ve been trying to find out that same question. How did I get put in this mess? That`s what I try to get Matt and his father, somebody to try to help me to find out why they even disrupting my life because it has been totally crazy for the last two or three weeks.

GRACE: People think you had something to do with hiding Caylee`s body, or worse?

THOMPSON: I think that`s what they eventually are trying to say, Nancy, but I haven`t even talked to him to try to find out. I just want to be somebody to help me out to see what they`re trying to say I did.

NANCY: So they just put on the defense witness list without even talking to you?

THOMPSON: Yes, ma`am.

MATT MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR VASCO THOMPSON, SURPRISE DEFENSE WITNESS: Yes, they did, Nancy. That`s where it gets dicey because what will have to be determined by the judge is whether this was willful or whether it was inadvertent, whether they just recently found out about Vasco or whether they had knowledge prior to this day.

GRACE: Wait a minute, first of all, Matt Morgan, joining us in Orlando with Vasco Thompson, the so-called mystery witness the defense put on their witness list. Was Vasco Thompson to be the golden ticket, the golden ring you grab and you win the lottery?

MORGAN: Exactly.

GRACE: They put his name on the defense list. It gets out there that he`s a convicted felon for kidnapping, does eight years with decades on probation after that.

Suggesting that his phone number pops up repeatedly on George Anthony`s cell phone, either calling him or getting called by George in the days after Caylee`s reported missing. That`s big. That`s big.

The speculation around Vasco Thompson has been huge. Was he in some plot with George Anthony to hide the body or even worse? So Matt Morgan, how did it all unfold? How did people get in touch with your client and what are people now saying your client had something to do with Caylee`s death?

MORGAN: Essentially what they`re going to, Nancy, is a few calls that went back and forth, back in 2008, right around the time that Caylee went missing.

And what they`re trying to say is that these calls somehow made a connection between George Anthony and my client, Vasco Thompson.

And essentially what we want you and the public and the press to be aware of is that Vasco did not have this number that he currently has back in 2008.

GRACE: So are you telling me, Matt Morgan, that wasn`t even his phone number at the time the calls were made back and forth to George Anthony?

MORGAN: That`s exactly what I`m telling you, Nancy. That`s why this is incredibly appalling. That`s why Vasco is so taken off guard by this subpoena that he received the other day.

GRACE: Here is the deal, Vasco Thompson, you might as well dig in because look what is happening to Zenaida Gonzalez, all right?

People think she`s a killer. They think she kidnapped Caylee and they see her, they won`t hire her, the whole shebang. So dig in. Unleash the - - go ahead.

MORGAN: You know, Nancy, this whole thing began with Casey dragging Zanny the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez into this, and our firm was able to clear her name.

And now it is ending with Vasco, just another attempt by Casey Anthony to try to create some kind of reasonable doubt and, you know, it is really, you know, upsetting for Vasco, obviously.


GRACE: Now apparently Jose Baez stated that he -- he made a motion, a formal motion, to add Vasco Thompson to the witness list, said he tried to contact him.

That Thompson wouldn`t talk to him and found out who he was and apparently Thompson was so concerned, he calls the police. Now, listen, when you got a convicted felon calling the police that speaks volumes.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say in the documents that Cindy Anthony told them a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket was missing from Caylee`s bed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recall there being a baby blanket was found.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Winnie-the-Pooh with Piglet on its back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee`s remains were found with a Winnie-the- Pooh blanket.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that has been returned to us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did it smell like there had been a dead body in it?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can feel it. It is coming and getting closer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recognize it as human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t forget that odor.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I checked the trunk area. I noticed some stain on the carpet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jumped up into the trunk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Left side of trunk liner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The presence of blood and they were negative.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: High levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unusually high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was scared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The scene as you know it is consistent with that scenario. That the body was placed there within two or three days of death and remained there consistently until it was found. There is nothing about the scene that would refute that, isn`t that correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is consistent with a lot of scenarios, but, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This body was, for some two or three days, in another location, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you assume the environmental conditions that you proposed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But right assuming as far as temperature goes.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And that location would have to be such that early colonizers were unable to get to it. Would that be correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. And the reason for that is the early colonizers, there were early colonizers present on the body in very low levels, so they had some access.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how many days is it that you feel at this temperature we`re experiencing right now, that that body was some place else before it went to that location? Around 95 degrees today, as I understand. I feel the same way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably around two to three or maybe four days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You would agree that from that point on this body, the evidence is consistent with this body remaining at that location from that point forward? Correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you assume that the remains were exposed to those conditions and if you assume that they did not have some sort of intermediary conditions and/or placed directly at that scene that would be consistent.


GRACE: We are live at the Orlando Courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.

The defense drops a torpedo, a bomb in court today, I think unintended when it slipped up they hired the bug expert before Caylee`s body had been identified.

I want to go to Dr. Henry Lee, former consultant to the tot mom defense team, distinguished professor of Forensic Science, University of New Haven.

Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. The defense called an entomologist today. What do you make of them calling the entomologist?

I assume it is just to attack the state`s case and then it slips up, maybe he was hired before the body was identified, Dr. Lee?

HENRY LEE, FORMER CONSULTANT TO TOT MOM DEFENSE TEAM: Yes, of course. The general public is going to think that`s very strange. However, it is a common practice, just like you buying insurance before a car accident or retaining a lawyer before the police arrest you and formally charge you.

GRACE: You mean, when you know you did something wrong and you know the police are going to come knock, knock, knock at your door.

LEE: No, -- something wrong to protect your right.

GRACE: I`ve never called a defense attorney to represent me.

LEE: You probably not and I didn`t never call a defense attorney to protect me.

GRACE: That`s right. Because you didn`t do anything wrong.

LEE: But Jose Baez is the one contacting. It is not Casey and I was contacted way before when, you know, she was first become a suspect, they contact me.

We did exam, I did examine the car and, of course, this case just has so many inconsistencies. If the body was in the car, she`ll have maggot.

Of course, now say the body in the plastic bag was sealed then the odor should not come out. And the smell chloroform if the body in the plastic bag, you should not smell the chloroform either.

So there are so many inconsistency there. It is an interesting case, but scientific evidence really not that conclusive, especially no blood, no tissue was found on --

GRACE: Well, Dr. Lee, hold on a minute, both the state and the defense theory of death has nothing to do with bloodshed. The state says she was asphyxiated due to duct tape and chloroform. The defense says she drowned in a pool. Why should there be blood?

LEE: Not necessarily blood, body fluid. Just a component of the body fluid. The body decompose, you going to have some --

GRACE: Well, according to the state there was body fluid. Hold on, Dr. Lee. Jason Byrd joining us, forensic entomologist, University of Florida.

Jason, explain to me, thank you for being with us, maybe you can clear this up, how can maggots from a trash bag have been used to determine time of death?

JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA (via telephone): Well, thank you for having me on the show, first, always good to be here.

You can use them to determine time of death as long as you have a couple of additional items of information. You have be to able to know what species they are, what they are, and you have to know their life stage, a couple of different stages of the maggot, which is a larva.

Then you also have to know the temperature at which that insect existed throughout its development and if you don`t have any one of those little three components coming up with postmortem interval estimation becomes difficult.

GRACE: What about that, Dr. Lee?

LEE: I think he`s absolutely correct because his case, and I don`t think the bottom line is the cause of death and the manner of the death. That`s having really established yet, is this really a murder or --

GRACE: You`re right, Dr. Lee. They`re never going to get the cause of death because the body was so decomposed. But finding a child, whether a mouth covered in duct tape out in a trash dump in a wooded area suggests, according to the medical examiner, that it was homicide.

With me, renowned expert Dr. Henry Lee, joining us from new haven and now CNN heroes.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A child of war can be simply described as a kid caught between a rock and a hard place. It is finding al your pieces and trying to put them back together. I do have something in common with the kids.

You wake up every morning thinking, we`re going to survive. Sanitation is not a priority. We have about 2 million kids that die of sanitation issues mainly because they don`t wash their hands.

I`m Dirk Kayongo. I`m a refugee. Now, I help people fight disease with basic sanitation. You have some soap for me? This is great. The issue is not the availability of soap, but the issue is cost. Can they afford it?

Eight hundred million bar of soaps that the hotels throw away in the U.S. alone every year. We are able to get a lot of soap, which we can purchase and make brand new soap out of it. We clean it, melt it, and then cut it into pieces. We box it and ship it.

Being here in Kenya at this orphanage is coming full circle, but with good news. It is very good to have it and use it to fight off the disease. Those are clean. That`s very good.

One of the things I have learned from the kids a sense of resilience, to know that they have this sense of hope and joy is remarkable. Do I feel like I`m having an impact on them? Yes, I think so.



GRACE: The murder trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony under way. Finally, reality hits. The consequences of murder and the brutal death of 2-year- old Caylee Marie Anthony.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ashton, Mr. Ashton, calm down, OK? Calm down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking back, you know, that`s the scariest part. She was a very attentive mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have already said they are going to pin this on me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An outline of a heart appeared in one of the corners on the edge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spiteful bitch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of that piece of duct tape, indication of a homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All you have is speculation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny the nanny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have see a photograph of Zanny the nanny?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your job, Caylee.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Located in the bedroom of Casey Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You leave her somewhere and you worry if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That Casey has ever done any harm to her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: July 2nd, 2008, Casey Anthony obtained a tattoo. This Italian phrase translates to beautiful life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony? Being the potential father of Caylee Anthony?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wants to ask this witness whether Mr. Lee Anthony was excluded as the father of Caylee, that`s fine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calm down, calm down.


GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal William Leusink (ph) killed in Iraq on a second tour. Served Afghanistan, awarded a Purple Heart, Afghanistan Campaign Medal, Combat Action Medal, National Defense Service Medal.

Loved grilling out, watching football, family dinners after church on Sundays, movies, the beach, boogie boarding. Leaves behind grieving parents Bill and Elaine, sisters, Abby and Katie, brother, Tody, widow, Miranda, William Leusink, American Hero.

Thanks to our guests. Lung cancer, the number one killer in the world claiming more lives than breast, colon, prostate and kidney together. A call for the Joan Gaeta Lung Cancer Fund.

Go to divas with a cause. Everyone, I will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. We will be live at the Orlando Courthouse in our own way seeking justice for Caylee. Until then, good night.


Friday, June 17, 2011

Nancy Grace asks if Caylee Anthony was alive when duct tape, bags were placed on her

Nancy Grace asks if Caylee Anthony was alive when duct tape, bags were placed on her

Mommy's Little Girl: Casey Anthony and her Daughter Caylee's Tragic FateOn the June 16, 2011 episode of HLN’s program Nancy Grace, the host and former prosecutor asked some disturbing questions.  Though many are horrified at the realization that Caylee Anthony was murdered as her mother, Casey Anthony, continues to plead her innocence, the full reality of how Caylee Anthony was murdered will never be known. 

Casey Anthony is charged with first degree murder in Caylee’s death and on the June 16, 2011 episode, Nancy Grace asked if Caylee was alive when duct tape and bags were place on her body.  Many hope that Caylee’s murderer had mercy on her and gave her chloroform before suffocating her with strips of duct tape over her mouth and nose and being placed inside three garbage bags.

Unfortunately, and as gruesome as it sounds, that may not be the case.

You may read the full transcript from Nancy Grace’s program below.

Nancy Grace Transcript June 16, 2011
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she`s got nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then he hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her. Tot mom gets a sexy tattoo in the days after Caylee goes missing, and then throws a pizza party at the tattoo parlor.

Bombshell tonight. Three years to the date, nearly to the hour Caylee goes missing, the defense kicks off with a torpedo in court, revealing to a stunned jury father George and brother Lee actually were tested for Caylee`s paternity. The FBI tested George and Lee as paternal suspects for Caylee`s father. Will this add fuel to the fire both George and brother Lee molested her?

This as we learn mystery DNA on duct tape wrapped around Caylee`s face. And we find a mystery here, found on the shovel tot mom borrowed. This as father George calls 911 in the dark of the night on the eve before the defense begins, George reporting an intruder at the Anthony home.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who the father of Caylee...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not know with 100...


Casey Anthony, Caylee`s MOTHER: If they have nothing positive to say.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony?

Casey Anthony: They need to shut up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being the potential father of Caylee Anthony?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Buccal samples have been submitted to the laboratory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the relevance of that, other than to suggest to the jury that there`s some information out there that this jury has not heard?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d never ask that question.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somehow, that bit of DNA could have been amplified, could have been this, could have been that.

GEORGE Anthony: Her and my son have different kind of communication.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is -- that is part of the work she`s done in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is not the question counsel asked, and he darn well knows it. If he wants to ask this witness whether Mr. Lee Anthony is excluded as the father of Caylee, that`s fine. That`s in the report. More power to him. But that wasn`t the question he asked. That wasn`t the implication he was trying to leave with this jury.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ashton (ph) -- Mr. Ashton, calm down, OK? Calm down.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Three years to the date, nearly to the hour Caylee goes missing, the defense kicks off with a torpedo in court, revealing to a stunned jury father George and brother Lee were actually tested for Caylee`s paternity.


Casey Anthony: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wanted to ask you if you conducted what would be considered a paternity test...

Casey Anthony: It`s sickening. It`s disgusting. And people really need to get a life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To determine if Lee Anthony was the biological father of Caylee Anthony.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stain that was in the trunk of the car, all you know is it`s not blood.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Located on the lower half of the space.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did have somebody call us and tell us (INAUDIBLE) shovel was borrowed (INAUDIBLE) day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The shovel was examined for the presence of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) close proximity to the child being missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Significance of the lack of blood on a particular crime scene. If a method is used to kill someone that doesn`t involve bloodshed, then the absence of blood doesn`t really say it didn`t happen, correct?


LEE Anthony: CMA, I miss you! I love you. CMA, I am so proud of you. I hope you`re proud of me, too. I need you to know that I will never forget the promise that I made to you.


GRACE: Brother Lee Anthony speaking at Caylee`s memorial, sending a coded message to his sister there behind bars. Here she is in court today. My, how things have changed, tot mom now going after her brother and father relentlessly, not only claiming father George is responsible for the crime scene where Caylee`s body was found, we learn today basically on a trash dump, but that both he and brother Lee sexually molested her.

And just dousing (SIC) fuel on the flame started by the defense in opening statement today, Jose Baez, lead defense attorney -- I guess he thought it was pretty slick, but he got out a question. The judge said, Hey, it`s almost lunchtime. Are you ready to quit? He goes, Oh, no. I`ve just got a couple more questions. The jury goes to lunch with this ringing in their ear, asking whether Lee and George Anthony were tested as potential fathers for little Caylee, thus suggesting not only molestation but incest, as well.

To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You know, Nancy, I was in that courtroom, and it was, let`s say, a fairly normal day for day one of the defense. Was there DNA in the trunk? No. Was there DNA on the duct tape? No. They did not know. Was there DNA on the shovel? No.

And then at the stroke of noon, Nancy, the FBI analyst was on the stand, expert in DNA -- Were you asked to do a paternity test on Lee Anthony, if he would be the father of Caylee? I think everyone just stopped. I saw people sort of look at each other. People were stunned. There was no objection. Jeff Ashton (ph) just asked for a sidebar. And then the judge ordered the lunch hour.

GRACE: And then when that jury went to lunch, what happened, Jean?

CASAREZ: Well, then there was argument in open court. And Jeff Ashton -- I think he is so afraid that the defense is not going to proceed in good faith in their defense case. That`s what he is so concerned about. And he was on the defensive saying that was not a question asked in good faith because if you were asked to do a test, that`s not relevant. Only the test results are relevant in this case.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. And also, out to Natisha Lance, also joining us at the courthouse. We are live outside the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse bringing you the very latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.

All along, we have been told -- and many of us have driven by where Caylee`s body was found -- it was a makeshift pet cemetery just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home. Every night, tot mom, if guilty, would have been falling asleep on her pillow, knowing her daughter`s body was rotting just 15 houses down.

We also learned today that that makeshift pet cemetery had basically been turned into a dump in a densely wooded area. That is where Caylee`s little body was left to rot.

To Natisha Lance. In the middle of all this, we find out that father George has to call 911 last night, saying he feared an intruder was trying to get into the house?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, what happened is that Leonard Padilla apparently was in front of the Anthony home with a news crew filming a segment for a show. Apparently, the door was knocked on. Nobody answered the door, but George Anthony ended up calling 911 for the loitering of Leonard Padilla, and Leonard Padilla was told that there was a restraining order against him.

I was able to speak to Mark Lippman today, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He says there is no restraining order. However, he is going to pursue further action against Leonard Padilla because now this is harassment.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining us tonight, in the courthouse all day long, Bill Sheaffer, former prosecutor, WFTV legal analyst, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Atlanta.

First to you, Bill Sheaffer. What was Baez trying to do, other than suggest to the jury the state would never have asked for a DNA paternity test on George and Lee if they hadn`t thought incest had occurred?

BILL SHEAFFER, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: That`s exactly the impression that Baez wanted to leave in the jurors` mind. That`s why Ashton got so upset. Look, that`s not going to be enough. He, Baez, has to present some substantial evidence on these allegations.

His defense fell flat in light of his bombastic opening. The courthouse was jammed today. The courthouse watchers, as well as this jury, expected him to start presenting evidence on his theory that he advanced in his opening. He hasn`t done it. And all he`s doing now is falling back on the bread and butter of criminal defense attorneys, and that`s trying to raise some reasonable doubt from the lack of evidence.

GRACE: You know -- to you, Peter Odom -- I often see when the defense really has nothing -- and look, it`s not the lawyer`s fault. Don`t you and Renee feel bad about it? But you got a client who`s guilty. So What are you going to do? You can`t make up witnesses. And I`ve seen them very often put on their witness list the very same witnesses that I called in my case in chief! So they call them as their witnesses and question them further, as if they`re really putting up a case.

Now, here what we`ve got is the inference by the defense that the state suspected George and Lee Anthony of having sex with tot mom, their daughter and sister respectively, when what it really is, in my mind, is the state, after tot mom claims she`s been molested, excludes them from paternity. That`s why they ran it, to clear up the question.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, maybe. Maybe not. I mean, I`m giving Jose Baez more credit than the other attorney on board. He`s doing what good defense attorneys do. He`s planting a seed.

Now, Nancy, remember, when Jose Baez first talked about this molestation, everybody`s jaw dropped and everybody talked about it as if it were the most ridiculous thing that anybody had ever heard of. Well, guess what? The FBI apparently had the same suspicions that they wanted to eliminate.

Now, the defense case has just started. Jose Baez might well have substantive evidence of this molestation to follow up on. That may be in the form of Casey Anthony`s testimony.

GRACE: Right. To you, Renee Rockwell. Let`s just hold back before we say anything defamatory against George or Lee. You want to -- the FBI can have suspicions, as Peter Odom just said. The local prosecutor said, Hey, can you also run this test while you`re running other tests? Clearly, tot mom has proven herself to be a liar, Renee.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, exactly what Peter said. When you`re planting a seed -- first of all, all the state was doing was plugging some holes in that dam, right? But by planting the seed and making it so sensational at that very moment, the jury`s going to go to lunch and think about that the entire time.




GEORGE ANTHONY: Just leave us alone.

CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`d be standing by all of us.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) his secrets quiet (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: History of sexual abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very special bond.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family is incredibly dysfunctional.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mother and father failed to protect her as a child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we`re going to play this game, then I`m going to play it right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both of those tests were negative for the presence of blood and semen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t imagine what would inspire her to lie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you love your daughter more than anything in the world?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no evidence whatsoever. None.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mother will never forgive you.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to find the truth.

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) what`s happened to the neighborhood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look what you`ve done!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gets harder and harder each day.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial against Casey Anthony, tot mom, in the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.

Back to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Over and over, until literally four spectators fell asleep and had to be asked to leave the courtroom, Baez just -- if the state thrilled the jury to death, Baez is boring them to death. Four people had to be asked to remove because they fell asleep because Baez kept asking over and over, Was there blood here, was there blood there, was there blood in this car, was there blood here, how about here in the trunk? No, there`s no blood. He could ask me once, and I could tell him. That`s not the defense theory or the state`s theory that there`s any bloodshed. What`s with the blood questions?

CASAREZ: Well, what is with the blood question is that if the body`s in the trunk, it continues to decompose. The fluids have to come out somewhere. That`s where he was going.

But Nancy, listen to this. Juror number four, that I saw in jury selection, who said that she finds it difficult to judge, who hardly took a note during the prosecution`s case and her notebook was by her side -- she had her notebook open before the defense began its case. Pen was in her hand. She started writing notes immediately, Nancy, that the defense started its case today.

GRACE: To Dr. Zhonghue Hua, Union County medical examiner, DNA expert. Dr. Hua, thank you for being with us. Just break it down for me. If this child died from asphyxiation from duct tape over her mouth and nose, or the overuse of chloroform, would she just spontaneously begin bleeding? I don`t think so.

DR. ZHONGHUE HUA, UNION COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: No. And we die of asphyxia mainly due to the lack of oxygen to your brain. Eventually, you die. There`s no relationship with bleeding from the body at all.

GRACE: So Baez`s questions, Steve Helling with "People" magazine, were completely misplaced on either the defense or the state`s theory as to cause of death, Steve.

STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE` MAGAZINE: Well, there was a lot of scratching of heads. Everybody wasn`t sure where he was going, what he was trying to get across. And you could see it in the jurors, too. They didn`t know, either.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three pieces of duct tape.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duct tape over her mouth and jaw.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has been no evidence presented that Casey Marie Anthony used duct tape for any purpose, that she used chloroform ever.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I guess you are, sir.


CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up! I`m talking. I am talking!

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, the shovel is in evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ashton, calm down.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God. Calling you guys, a waste, a huge waste.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is he upset?

CINDY ANTHONY: This is why he`s upset. Back off, OK? Please, before I lose my husband.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You`re trying to confuse me. Treat me with a little bit of respect.



GRACE: We are live at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest against tot mom Casey Anthony in the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.

Out to the lines. Susie in Texas. Hi, Susie. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, at one point, Casey Anthony got out on bond. Is there a possibility that she had had the body somewhere else and moved it to the location, or she got someone while she`s out on bond to do this for her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Susie in Texas, it is entirely possible. In fact, I believe it`s the state`s theory that the car trunk and the final resting place where her body was found were not tot mom`s first choice. I think that she was hidden or buried somewhere else.

And we saw that played out in the state`s case, where they brought on evidence of coffin flies in tot mom`s trunk, swarming her trunk, as compared to blowflies. Significance? Blowflies are interested in a decomposing body at the initial stages following death. Then they get disinterested and go away. Then in come coffin flies. Her body was at the stage where coffin flies were interested when that body was put in the trunk, according to the state.

Also, we know, Susie in Texas, that a cadaver dog hit in the back yard in the dirt, which suggests she may have been hidden somewhere in the back yard.

Back to the lines. Meredith in Alabama. Hi, Meredith. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, yes. By all accounts, Caylee was a very bright and verbal child. Could tot mom have killed her because she was either afraid Caylee might start verbalizing to others such things as, No nanny, No Zanny, if Cindy asked Caylee? And also, if tot mom was using chloroform on a regular basis, Caylee, becoming verbal, might start saying, No, Mommy -- No, Mommy, no sleepy, no trunk.

GRACE: You know, Meredith, that`s a great idea! What about it, Dr. Bethany Marshall?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I think that`s a brilliant question. But Meredith, I think it`s much more simple than that. I think there were two motivations. I think Casey Anthony wanted boyfriends and a sexual life, and that was it.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is not any evidence of anything other than a caring, loving mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that is all subject to change.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am the dumbest person and the worst mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a Google search?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The words "neck breaking" with a space in between.

CASEY ANTHONY: The worst, catastrophic thing that could happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A visit to (INAUDIBLE) or ending in inhalation.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony is ill.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Head,-underscore, injury.

CASEY ANTHONY: The potential of Caylee getting hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ruptured spleen.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lawyers and the judge huddled for a sidebar.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hand-to-hand combat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Perry -- Then you all lied to me. Nason (ph) -- No. The judge -- Yes, the hell you did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A caring, loving mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search term of "internal bleeding."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge -- I will take it that I cannot trust one thing your side says anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who did this car belong to?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tony -- Anthony Lazzaro, Tony Lazzaro. I inspected the vehicle exterior and interior, and also I checked the trunk area, and I observed some stain on the carpet. Before that, I used (INAUDIBLE) light sources, gave me a possible (ph) reaction for stain. Next step is I use a (INAUDIBLE) glove test in that area, and the result was negative.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the murder of her 2-year-old little girl pictured there, Caylee.

We hear today a description of where Caylee`s little body was left, triple-bagged like she`s trash. It had degenerated from being a makeshift pet cemetery to a trash dump there in a densely wooded area. That`s where this little girl`s body was left to rot.

Not only that, Jose Baez, in a stunning if possibly objectionable move, suggests to the jury that the FBI suspected George Anthony and Lee Anthony as the father of Caylee, pointing the finger toward molestation or incest at these two.

We are taking your calls live, but first to Jean Casarez. Let`s go back to the mystery witness by the defense, listed on the defense witness list, 52-year-old Vasco Thompson. He`s a con, did eight years behind bars, 30 years of probation on burglary, had other arrests, as well. Why? What happened to him? Why wasn`t he the defense`s first witness?

CASAREZ: I think the defense has to find him first. I don`t think he`s anywhere to be found. Once they find him, they`ve got to do a deposition on him to see if there`s anything relevant to come into court with. And then the judge has to allow him to testify.

GRACE: Well, we also know, Steve Helling, writer for "People" magazine, what Vasco Thompson is all about. He is a felon, whose name popped up four to five times on George Anthony`s, we believe, cell phone. We don`t know who called who, we just know his number popped up.

What does that mean to me? Absolutely nothing. For all I know, he was trimming trees or the Roto-Rooter guy or the electricity guy. I don`t know who he is of what he`s doing in life now. I don`t know if it was a mistake phone call. What do we know, Steve Helling?

HELLING: Well, that`s just the thing, we don`t know what the nature of any contact that there may or may not have been was. And so the importance of that is knowing that -- you know, that`s one of those things that has a lot of style and a lot of flash, you know, that maybe George was talking to this ex-con. But the substance could be very boring. It could have been nothing. It could have been -- like you said, he could have been doing the yardwork. We just don`t know yet.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad. What do we know about the digits of those phone numbers being reversed to other numbers George was dialing regarding a security job?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, there are reports that the number for this guy, Vasco Thompson -- his phone number is very similar to the phone number of a business where George Anthony had just started a new job as a security guard. So the theory is that perhaps he was calling or even sending texts to this number, not realizing it was the wrong number.

GRACE: OK. Jose Baez -- please put that up. I want to hear that direct and cross-examination of the con, Vasco Thompson. And it`s all -- to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall -- part of the defense effort to target or smear George Anthony, all right? Now, we`ve seen the other day, when Cindy Anthony comes down off the stand, she looks right at tot mom and says -- and tot mom goes -- now we see the way she`s treating her father.

They`re going to claim, one, he was using this convicted felon to do his dirty work, to hide the body or get rid of the body or move the body. Number two, they`re bringing on a so-called other woman that claims she had an affair with George -- not true -- that he told her Caylee`s death was an accident that snowballed out of control. They`re going to bring on one of the protesters that he pushed back. They`re trying to get George`s medical records to say he was imbalanced. They`re going to use his alleged suicide attempt when he was distraught over Caylee`s death, over her murder.

They are going to come down on George Anthony. It`s a matter of time.

MARSHALL: Yes, and you know what? How much are these jurors going to be able to take of that? It`s such an attack on the parents. And what if there`s a juror who has a child who`s troubled? Almost every parent knows what it`s like to have a troubled child who maligns them, and those juror are not going to like this attack on George and Cindy.

GRACE: To Paul Penzone, former sergeant with the Phoenix PD, child advocate. We learned today just the squalid scene where Caylee`s body was left to rot, and that was very damning to me, that someone would leave their child there, they could go back home and put their head on the pillow and go to sleep, knowing their precious little girl is laying out there in the trash.

PAUL PENZONE, FMR. SGT., PHOENIX PD: And I think there`s a lot of consistency. When you`ve heard the behaviors that her mother displayed, how narcissistic she was, and that life was really about what she wanted, it`s consistent with why this would have occurred and why the outcome would be to treat something so precious so poorly. So for me, I look at that, it validates a lot of her behaviors prior to and even after her daughter went missing.

GRACE: Also -- back to you, Natisha Lance, in court today. We also - - not only did Baez go on and on and on asking all the witnesses, Was there blood, was there blood -- Baez, there`s no blood! You yourself claim she died by accident in the swimming pool. The state`s theory is that she was asphyxiated. So there`s not going to be any blood, OK? You can not spend eight hours of our time asking about blood.

But what did we learn about the fingerprints on the duct tape?

LANCE: Well, Nancy, we learned that Casey Anthony and Caylee Anthony could be excluded as fingerprints. And there was a DNA profile that was on that duct tape, on the silver side, as well as on the adhesive side. What we were able to find out through the prosecution when they came and did their cross is that profile belonged to an FBI lab technician who was examining it, trying to find further evidence of that heart-shaped sticker residue.


LANCE: Somehow...

GRACE: I got it. I got it!

LANCE: ... her DNA profile...

GRACE: It was the lab tech! That`s all you had to say, Natisha.

LANCE: Right.

GRACE: All you had to say was it belonged to a lab tech. There`s unknown mystery DNA on the duct tape around Caylee`s head. It wasn`t tot mom`s. It wasn`t Caylee`s. Panic ensued! So you`re telling me that it was only cleared up on cross-exam that the DNA belonged to one of the lab techs that analyzed the tape? Yes, no! That`s a yes/no question, Natisha!


GRACE: OK. Peter Odom, so to me, that`s Baez intentionally misleading this jury, trying to suggest somebody else -- there`s an unknown mystery person whose DNA is on the duct tape, when he knows all along it`s one of the crime lab techs that tested the tape!

ODOM: Well, Nancy, what -- the point is that it`s not his client. And that`s what he`s trying to do. And that`s what he`s done with witness after witness is just show that his client`s DNA is not on it.



CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll take this as far as I need to to prove my innocence, which I guess is my point in all of this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our system has a black eye on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will hear stories about a family that is incredibly dysfunctional.

CASEY ANTHONY: Do me a favor. Get my brother back (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test to for Lee Anthony as to Caylee (INAUDIBLE) being a potential father?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey told me that Lee attempted to have sex with her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no good faith basis for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) relationships are coming under scrutiny in this trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know if I can believe what you`re saying, you know?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The DNA obtained from specimen Q18-1.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey was raised to lie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she really do it only to better herself? Does she even just say white lies just to do it?



CASEY ANTHONY: Like I said, that none of this would have happened.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Orange County, Orlando, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the case against tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her daughter, 2-year-old Caylee. And today, three years to the date Caylee last seen alive, the defense kicks off its case in court, defending Caylee`s own mother on murder charges.

We are taking your calls. Out to Yvonne in Illinois. Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I have a comment. Hello?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just (INAUDIBLE) I`ve been following this incident (ph) for three years now. And in March, she had looked up neck breaking and all those different type of things for how to kill people. And I just -- and then she had commented that she was going to move into her parents` home with her friend. And I just think she didn`t get the job -- all of her job completed. I think she wanted to get rid of her daughter and her family members, and then she could collect everything and just live a happy, free life.

GRACE: You know, Yvonne in Illinois, that theory has been floated by a lot of people. In fact, you`re right.

Give it to me in a nutshell, Ellie Jostad. She did tell a lot of people that she was going to move into her family home and that her parents were going to move out. What, to the cemetery?

JOSTAD: Exactly. Her friend, Amy Huizinga, thought that Casey was going to take over the mortgage payments, they were going to move in and they were going to live there with Caylee.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers," weigh in on that theory.

MARSHALL: Well, I think that`s a very chilling possibility, and I think anything`s possible in this case. But I think she was also a big braggart and she wanted Amy Huizinga to think that her parents` house was her castle. And this provides a motivation for why she would have gotten rid of the little girl, as well. She didn`t want anything that would interfere with the life she wanted.

That`s why. She wanted to have sex with her boyfriend. She wanted an idealized life. She wanted the little girl out of the way. She wanted George and Cindy`s financial and psychological resources all for herself. But boy, if they were standing in her way, that`s a chilling thought that she might have gotten rid of them, as well.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Bill Sheaffer, Peter Odom, Renee Rockwell. Bill Sheaffer, I want your comment -- I got it from Peter Odom - - about Jose Baez knowing today -- tot mom`s defense lawyer -- knowing that the unknown mystery DNA on that duct tape around Caylee`s face and mouth belonged to, very simply, the lab tech that was handling the tape, that tested it.

But he didn`t bring that out. He wouldn`t bring that out. He left the impression with that jury at the end of his direct that there was an unknown person that put that tape on Caylee, Bill Sheaffer.

SHEAFFER: Look, I`ve seen Mr. Baez in every pretrial that`s been held in this case. I`ve read every deposition that`s been transcribed. I`ve watched every minute of testimony. Was there a purpose other than good faith, trying to raise reasonable doubt? I think an argument can be made that this was an attempt to do something sleazy, and that`s why Jeff Ashton got so upset out of the presence of the jury.

I would not put it past Mr. Baez to have a double purpose for this. I can`t give him the benefit of the doubt on this point. I think it was by design not just to say, Oh, my client`s DNA wasn`t found on this.

But I tell you what, Nancy. The thing about it is, is that he knows that what`s going to come back is that it was the forensic -- the forensic -- the forensic person`s DNA on there. So it`s like he makes these points, knowing that he`s going to be destroyed. But I think it was disingenuous.

GRACE: Exactly. To Renee Rockwell. And there`s a bigger issue because the truth did come out on the state`s cross-exam. Once you pull that stunt in front of a jury, the jury is not made up of a bunch of idiots, all right? Somebody, if not everyone in the jury box, is going to figure out what Baez did, and then when he makes a legitimate point, he`s going to have lost credibility.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, can I disagree with you and the other gentleman?

GRACE: Sure.

ROCKWELL: First of all, what he`s pointed out, Nancy, is that somebody is compromising the integrity of the investigation. How embarrassing is it to have a lab tech`s DNA on the evidence? That`s a big ringer (ph). I don`t think it`s a sleazy move at all. If he`s just looking at and if he`s just talking to one juror, juror number four, the one taking down all the notes, that`s all it`s going to take, Nancy, maybe to acquit her or at least to save her life.

GRACE: You know, Renee, I agree with you that it`s absolutely unacceptable for a lab tech, a scientist, to get their DNA on the evidence. It`s O.J. Simpson all over again. But here`s the deal. That`s not what Baez was arguing. Baez didn`t do that. That`s not the way he went at it. He didn`t go in it saying, Hey, guess what? The evidence compromised. We didn`t hear a word about it in opening statement, nothing. He wanted to leave the impression with that jury somebody else wrapped that duct tape around tot mom -- around Caylee`s nose, mouth and face.

And now you`ve just given him an argument for closing arguments that he didn`t already have thought of. Thanks, Renee! Out to the lines.

ROCKWELL: I`ll send him a bill.

GRACE: Teresa in New York. Hi, Teresa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You have a wonderful show!

GRACE: Hi, Teresa. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Why wasn`t Leonard Padilla or Tim Miller called by the prosecution, since they had so much inside knowledge of her state of mind and demeanor when they were in her home? Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Hey, Teresa, thank you very much for your kind words. What about it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: Leonard Padilla is not on the witness list for the prosecution or the defense. Tim Miller is. And you know what? There`s going to be a rebuttal case, we believe, for the prosecution. So stay tuned.

GRACE: You know what? Nobody`s really mentioned the rebuttal. The rebuttal is when the state, who has the burden of proof, rebuts the defense case. They can bring on additional witnesses and evidence following Jose Baez`s defense of tot mom. There can even be a sur-rebuttal, which is the defense rebuts the state`s rebuttal.

And isn`t it true, Steve Helling, that on that witness list that they could use for rebuttal is an inmate that claims tot mom told her she used chloroform?

HELLING: Yes. You know, there are so many people on that witness list that, you know, could be really damning to the defense. And we don`t know who they`re going to call. We`re just going to find out, as everybody else does.

GRACE: So Steve Helling, you`re saying just because the defense lists them doesn`t mean they`re going to call them.

HELLING: Exactly. That`s exactly what I`m saying. People who are listed aren`t always going to be called to the stand.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A picture tells a thousand words.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Bella vita" -- this Italian phrase translates to "beautiful life."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something`s not right with this girl.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No stain was found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell of decomposition is unique.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m so sorry that you have to go through this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are there cameras in all the rooms?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To this day, I believe everything that my sister tells me.

CINDY ANTHONY: How come she never got a chance to get the car?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were a few flies that flew out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The test for the presence of blood was negative.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) remains were found.

GEORGE ANTHONY: How dare you say that about my granddaughter!


GRACE: To Ellie Jostad. Ellie, wasn`t there someone, a witness on the state`s witness list that they could conceivably call in rebuttal to the defense, somebody behind bars that alleges tot mom told them she used chloroform on Caylee?

JOSTAD: Well, right, Nancy. There was a witness named Mya Dirkovic (ph). She`s in the Orange County jail. She claimed that Casey Anthony told her that she`d used chloroform. And she did a couple media interviews. She said that this is something that Casey told her.

GRACE: Very quickly, Peter Odom. That`s the last thing the state needs now is to put inmate up and ruin the whole case.

ODOM: Yes, the defense is looking for the slopover effect. They want this inmate`s evilness to slop over on George Anthony.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Michael Dickinson II, 26, Battle Creek, Michigan, killed Iraq, awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Meritorious Service Medal, Army Commendation, on a fourth tour. Also served Afghanistan and Kosovo, loved working out, video games, never met a stranger, helping his best friend, Jason, paralyzed in a motorcycle accident, dreamed of being a physician`s assistant and adopting his four stepchildren. Leaves behind mother, Vicky (ph), sisters Carmen (ph), Renee (ph), Michelle (ph), brother Darryl (ph), also serving the Army, widow Gloria (ph), daughter Abigail. Michael Dickinson II, American hero.

Thanks to you, but especially to our guests and to you for joining us. And tonight, congratulations to Timmy in California, graduating today, an Eagle Scout, loves his family, his mother, his father, sister Katie (ph) and the head of the family, Gus (ph), the family dog. He loves football, baseball and the Atlanta Braves. Graduating with top grades, this Eagle Scout is headed to Ivy League school. No pressure, Timmy. But now you can just go change the world.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night. We will be live at the Orlando courthouse, in our own way seeking justice for Caylee. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.