Casey Anthony case June 17, 2011: Testimony centers on bug expert, Nancy Grace transcripts
On June 17, 2011, the defense in the Casey Anthony case had their second full day of calling witnesses; they spent the day speaking to bug expert Tim Huntington. Tim Huntington presented testimony for the defense as to why it seemed unlikely in his opinion that Caylee Anthony’s body was in the trunk of Casey’s white Pontiac Sunbird. Casey Anthony maintains her innocence in the first degree murder trial, but the prosecution believes that Casey administered chloroform to Caylee before suffocating her with duct tape and placing her in three garbage bags and a laundry bag.
It was a long testimony and there were many breaks throughout the day for the jury. Though Tim Huntington stated that there should have been more blow fires in the car, if Caylee Anthony’s body was decomposing in the trunk, he ultimately testified that the area where she died would smell like human decomposition.
It was a bitter and contentious cross examination and by the time prosecutor Jeff Ashton was through, the defense’s bug expert had made two key points for the state: the smell of decomposition in the car and the news that the evidence showed Dr. Huntington that Caylee had only been dead for two or three days before her body was placed in the wooded area off of Suburban Drive.
You may read Nancy Grace’s full transcript for June 17, 2011 below.
Nancy Grace Transcript: June 17, 2011
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she`s got nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her. Tot mom gets a sexy tattoo in the days after Caylee goes missing, then throws a pizza party at the tattoo parlor.
After the defense reveals to a stunned jury brother Lee actually tested for Caylee`s paternity, bombshell tonight. Did tot mom, Casey Anthony, reveal the location of Caylee`s remains before the body is found? A defense bug expert says tot mom`s lawyers call him before there`s even an ID of Caylee`s tiny bones.
And tot mom defense golden ticket, Jose Baez`s last bad faith attempt to create reasonable doubt -- tonight, we locate that defense mystery witness, the convicted felon whose number pops up repeatedly on father George Anthony`s phone. Is it a big sham by the tot mom defense? Mystery witness Vasco Thompson with us live. This as lead defense attorney Jose Baez blasted in court for texting during testimony. And police swarm the tot mom courthouse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They start out as eggs. The eggs hatch out into larvae, which in the case of flies, we call them maggots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pizza full of maggots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maggots found in the trunk of the car.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Full of maggots, and it stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The maggots start out small, same way that a butterfly starts out, a caterpillar starts out small.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are speculating that remains were there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they eat. And that`s their sole function, they eat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the car, to clarify, clear as day, I smelled it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First stage larva.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you write a little bit bigger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I`ll try (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s try it`s again. That`s pretty small.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
CINDY ANTHONY: It`s just -- it is what it is. It is a bag of whatever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Did tot mom, Casey Anthony, reveal the location of Caylee`s remains there in the woods before the body is found?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The decompositional fluid stain -- very distinguishable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flies were there. It most likely was decompositional fluid.
CINDY ANTHONY: It stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) into maggots. They wiggle their way out. They`re soft and squishy, just like a butterfly is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tossed in a field to rot in bags.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I know I`m running out of options.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Counsel (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not care for Mr. Baez standing on his head, standing on one leg. Let`s stick to the facts. Be professional.
VASCO THOMPSON, ON DEFENSE WITNESS LIST: I have no idea who George Anthony is.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: Shut up!
THOMPSON: I just met him, seen him on TV.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You don`t care (INAUDIBLE)
THOMPSON: I never talked to George Anthony.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I am talking!
THOMPSON: And I don`t know why they got me involved in all this mess.
CASEY ANTHONY: If they have nothing positive to say, they need to shut up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
Bombshell in the courtroom today. Did tot mom actually reveal the location of Caylee`s remains before the body was found? And what does that mean for the defense?
Gary Tuchman, CNN correspondent, joining us in Orlando. He`s been in the courtroom from the get-go. And of course, you can see Gary every night on Anderson Cooper "AC 360" at 10:00 o`clock Eastern.
Gary, what do you make of the bombshell in the courtroom today that the defense bug expert was apparently hired before the body, the remains of little Caylee were even identified?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was bizarre and suspicious. Dr. Tim Huntington from Concordia College in Nebraska, an expert on bugs, said he was hired by the defense December 11th. And we all thought, Wait, that was before the body was identified.
What we think might happen, Nancy, is the defense, if pressed upon it, might say, Well, we hired him because we had him look at the car, and they were examining the car before the body was identified. But it`s very suspicious that it was just before the body was identified, the same day the body was found, but before it was positively identified.
GRACE: You know, Natisha Lance, this brings to mind tot mom`s reaction when it was rumored -- and there were news reports. Remember, she was in jail, and it was rumored a body had been found -- as compared to all the other times people thought there had been a Caylee sighting or thought the body had been found. She had no reaction whatsoever. On this day, before the body was identified, do you recall her reaction behind bars?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I do, Nancy. This was from the interview from Tammy Unser (ph), who was the officer who was in jail with Casey Anthony. She was brought to the health unit, and there was news reports that were on in front of her. And what Unser said is that Casey Anthony began to become very agitated. She said that her constraints were becoming tightened around her. She had shallow breathing. She started to break out in hives. And she asked for her restraints to be loosened, although Tammy Unser said that that could not be done at that time.
GRACE: What you`re seeing right now, and what Natisha Lance is describing, is part of what tot mom saw on TV behind bars. She sees a scene where the police are just getting there. There`s a rumor a body`s been found just 15 houses from the Anthony home. Unlike all the other times that there were sightings of Caylee, that they thought her body may have been found, and there was no reaction from tot mom whatsoever, this time, she doubles over, allegedly begins to hyperventilate -- this is before the body is identified -- says that her handcuffs are too tight, her hands are turning red, same thing echoed here.
To Robyn Walensky, WDBO. The significance -- that this bug expert, Huntington, says that he was contacted before Caylee`s remains were identified is significant!
ROBYN WALENSKY, WDBO: It really is, Nancy. The timeline is extremely troubling here because it leads us to believe that Casey Anthony clearly knew something. Why in the world would they go out and get this bug guy, when, you know, no one else in the world knew that it was little Caylee there in the woods? The body had not yet been ID`d.
GRACE: Joining us, a special guest, special correspondent Diane Dimond with "Newsweek" and the DailyBeast. She`s been in the courtroom from the get-go. Diane, weigh in.
DIANE DIMOND, "NEWSWEEK"/DAILYBEAST: Well, you know, this is just one of those bizarre things about this case. And there are so many. There are just so many. You know, as I sat and watched the bug man testify today, I kept thinking to myself, Are they insane? He`s talking about an experiment he did in Nebraska with a pig in the trunk of a car, not a child. He did it in Nebraska in the fall, not the summer. And he`s saying that there were no maggots in the car in Florida, although he hadn`t even seen the car in Florida, only photographs.
To me this is one of the strangest defense tactics I have ever seen, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, also, Gary Tuchman, we heard an expert on the stand talk about how the bugs had actually broken through and gotten into the passenger compartment. What`s the significance of that?
TUCHMAN: Well, the whole thing about this argument -- I agree with this fact that a pig in Nebraska and not in the same car -- I mean, when you do scientific experiments, you need controls. There were no controls in this whatsoever. So I`m not sure what significance the jury will see here.
But what the prosecution is saying, that it`s all a moot point anyway because they believe little Caylee`s body was in a bag in the car and it wouldn`t leave fluids anyway. What this guy today is trying to intimate to the jury is that there weren`t enough fluids in this car, therefore, there wasn`t a dead body in the car. The prosecution said she was in a bag, there wouldn`t be fluids anyway.
GRACE: Gary Tuchman, you have been in the courtroom from the get-go. Is it true -- yesterday we obviously saw the defense start off with a whimper and not a bang. Four people were kicked out of the courtroom for falling asleep during Jose Baez`s demonstration. Let`s see a shot of that -- that easel he`s got going on. It`s like a mad scientist scribbling all over a big -- there you go. And it looks like maybe football plays.
Is the jury able to take all of this in?
TUCHMAN: The jury seems a little bored, but they`re paying attention. They are not falling asleep. But you talk about the people going -- and I feel sorry for the people. This is very important for a lot of people to watch this in person. They`ve flown from all over the country to be here. I don`t begrudge them the right to see that. But there are very strict rules. If you fall asleep, they`re going to kick you out.
So today, for example, within the first hour-and-a-half of testimony, five people were kicked out for falling asleep, two people were kicked out for talking. There`s only 50 people in the court. So 7 out of 50 people - - more than 10 percent of the people who waited all night, in some cases more than 12 hours, were kicked out of the court.
GRACE: And now to Paul Penzone, former sergeant, Phoenix PD, child advocate. Paul, weigh in.
PAUL PENZONE, FMR. SGT., PHOENIX PD: Well, I don`t find that information damning in and of itself, but it is curious and it adds to a lot of the areas. If you look at this case...
PENZONE: ... from the defense side...
GRACE: Put him up.
GRACE: Put him up! Put him up!
GRACE: Paul, the defense hires a bug expert before they even identify the body, and that`s just curious to you?
PENZONE: The reason I state that...
GRACE: To add onto the fact that we know the Anthony PI, private investigator, had been out to the scene where the body was ultimately found before police found it -- I mean, put two and two together, Penzone!
PENZONE: I`m with you 100 percent, Nancy. Believe me. I`m just trying to play the...
GRACE: More than curious!
PENZONE: ... objective investigator. And with a decent defense team, they could probably answer to that, that might be believable.
But here`s what I have to say. I feel as though the prosecution is treating this, like, you know, in the courtroom, like it`s chess, a very strategic method to trying to accomplish the outcome. It`s the defense team that looks like they`re playing checkers. A lot of what they throw out there, a lot of things that they`ve done have been so rudimentary that it undermines any kind of legitimate defense.
So I`m confident and I feel good about what the prosecution has done. But I`m always fearful in the courtroom because all you need is one juror. So I agree with you 100 percent, Nancy. But I just think the defense team is very -- they lack the expertise to really explain out (ph) things to defend their client.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it all began when Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the people come out there and crucify you for this because of all of the lies that you`ve been telling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a walking, living soap opera.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never been in a courtroom like this!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go! Let him go. This is ridiculous!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outrageous outburst.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is rowdy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Call for a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) one more time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) do?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m protecting our family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the rest of your frickin` life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) arrest her. I have to (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) world`s on hold.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I am talking!
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll ask you all individually and collectively to render a verdict of not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, charged in the alleged death of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
Back to Robyn Walensky, WDBO. What happened? Why was there such an outburst that police swarming the courthouse today?
WALENSKY: Nancy, I`m out there every single day at 3:30 in the morning for my radio job. What was different about this morning compared to the last two weeks is that people started lining up last night at 7:00 or 8:00 o`clock PM. So they had been out there all night.
There are two guys that came into the line. The people that are in the line, like that guy we call "neck brace man," they actually patrol themselves. There`s a lady that they call the "Sharpie lady," and she takes a black magic marker, Nancy, and she marks number one, number two, number three, up to number 100 of the people. So the line patrols itself.
And these two outsiders came in. One guy ended up in a headlock, and then three women got in on it, while one woman all covered with tattoos -- cops called to the scene. They had to break up the whole thing. But we`re told that no one was actually arrested.
GRACE: Let`s try Lindsey in Utah. Lindsey, are you there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, me and my mom love you! We wish you were prosecuting this case.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. My question is -- her mom -- is she agreeing with the defense`s claim? Is she still on her side? I mean, we haven`t really heard of allegations against her dad and brother. You know, what does her mom think?
GRACE: You know, Diane Dimond, Lindsey`s question is extremely pertinent because of all of the witnesses called to the stand, Cindy Anthony has been called more than any other witness and I think has made the greatest impact.
GRACE: Have you seen a change in George and Cindy Anthony`s demeanor on the stand since this case started?
DIMOND: Not so much George. He is a very tightly-wound fellow. You can talk to him in the hallway -- or as we were walking to lunch one day, he and I had a conversation. But Cindy -- I have seen a change in her while she`s testifying.
Nancy, she was asked one day by Jose Baez, Didn`t you realize that these people were her imaginary friends? And Cindy -- it`s like a lightbulb went on over her head, and she sat back in the chair and she said, I guess I now realize they were imaginary friends. It`s like she`s suddenly coming to a realization that many other people already knew, that her daughter is a big, fat liar.
GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us out of New York. We have seen a subtle shifting in her demeanor on the stand. What do you think, Caryn Stark?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that what`s happening, Nancy, is she`s becoming more and more aware of who her daughter really is. It`s very hard, when you`re a mother, to be able to see that there`s that kind of a problem. And now she can`t be in denial because it`s all too evident that so much doesn`t make sense and that something is really wrong, particularly with her turning against her own family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The decompositional fluid stain -- most of the studies that I`ve conducted and even cases that I`ve worked on have been in outdoor environments. This same fluid reaches into the ground, very distinguishable. My colleagues at the University of Nebraska work to identify places where bodies have decomposed, specifically looking at the presence or absence of these decompositional fluids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We refer to that in forensic entomology as the post-mortem interval.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s out there somewhere, and her rotten body is starting to decompose.
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body is very decomposed.
CASEY ANTHONY: The thought of that every day makes me sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The flies were there. The larvae were there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lovely breakfast conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they will colonize a dead human.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to be just as she was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The same way they do any other dead animal.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve all seen roadkill sitting on the side of the road.
GEORGE ANTHONY: How dare you say that about my granddaughter!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) see little green-and-blue flies buzzing around it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live outside the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony. She`s on trial for murder one in the death of her little girl, 2-year-old Caylee, Caylee`s remains found just 15 houses from the Anthony home.
Bombshell in the courtroom today, an unintentional slip by one of the defense witnesses that the bug expert called by the defense was actually contacted before Caylee`s remains ever identified. So how did they know this was Caylee unless tot mom told them?
Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer, Bradford Cohen, defense attorney, Miami. What about it, Anne Bremner?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what we`ve already heard, Nancy. I mean, it could relate to the trunk. You know, when she was on video, when she heard about the discovery of a body, she was hyperventilating. We`ve already heard about the description from the jail staff at the time. So her reaction is -- there`s one kid missing in that area. They find a kid pretty close to her house, skeletal remains. So you know, that timing is not as suspect as it seems, at least in my mind, and not that bad for the defense.
GRACE: OK, Bradford, I hear Anne Bremner going back to her reaction behind bars. But my question is not about that. My question is about the bug expert that the defense brings on today, that clearly was hired before Caylee`s remains were ever identified. I got a problem with that!
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I know you have a problem with that. And there`s a reasonable inference there, but there`s also a reasonable inference that he was hired to examine the trunk of the car, that an individual was found -- a kid was found where there`s a kid missing, that`s three blocks away from Casey Anthony`s house, there`s an inference that that`s probably little Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Premeditation is the essential element that distinguishes first degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search results, C-H-L-O-R-O-F-O-R-M, chloroform, neck breaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duct tape anywhere attached to that child`s face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think after this long she would still be local?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Decompositional fluid ring here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a possibility.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Decompositional stain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dead bodies very, very quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your gut tells you she`s close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These white spots are maggots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s hiding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a greasy stain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know in my heart she`s not far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Body fluids, body fats.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can feel it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: `m sorry, I`ll wait. Counsel is busy texting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how many times, I`m not going to say this ever again. I do not care if Mr. Baez is standing on his head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have nothing to hide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standing on one leg.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is 101.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, let`s just stick with the facts and be professional.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have conducted myself in the most professional manner that I possibly can.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are in the midst of the defense case. So far about nine people have been kicked out for falling asleep.
Welcome back. We`re live at the ORANGE COUNTY COURTHOUSE as the case against tot mom, Casey Anthony charged in the alleged murder of her 2-year- old little girl rages on.
So far, police swarm the courthouse today after a fistfight breaks out. People trying to get into the courtroom to see what zany defense, what story is going to be foisted upon the jury today?
And today we hear from a bug expert, but not necessarily what the defense wanted or intended for him to say. It slipped out that he was hired before Caylee`s remains ever even identified.
We are taking your calls live, but right now, a special guest is joining us, along with Matt Morgan, defense attorney, joining us out of Orlando.
The golden ticket, the key to the defense, an attempt to raise reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury. A convicted felon with a serious and violent crime on his history, kidnapping, eight years hard time.
Vasco Thompson, that felon, the defense suggests by putting him on the witness list, by letting it slip out that he has made many contacts with father George Anthony.
That somehow he and George Anthony, father George Anthony, the ex-cop, who raised Caylee as his own child had cooked up some scheme to, what, hide her body, to hire some guy, some convicted felon to do his dirty work for him? Is that where they were headed?
Well, today, Mr. Thompson is with us live and he doesn`t know anything not only about some scheme to hide Caylee`s body, but about George Anthony at all.
Has this guy been unwittingly dragged into tot mom`s vortex, just like Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez? OK, to Vasco Thompson. I know you`ve got your lawyer with you, Matt Morgan. Great reputation he`s got to speak for you.
But Mr. Thompson, I want to ask you, without your lawyer butting in and trying to talk for you, which is his job, I get it, what do you know about father George Anthony?
VASCO THOMPSON, SURPRISE DEFENSE WITNESS: Well, how are you doing first, Nancy? Glad you have me on.
GRACE: Thank you.
THOMPSON: I want to thank my Lord and Jesus Christ, my savior in my life for giving me a chance to talk to you to straighten this matter out.
I don`t know anything about George Anthony. I never heard from him. I never talked to him. I`ve just seen him on TV and they dragging me into this for some reason I don`t know.
GRACE: You know, Mr. Thompson, I know all about your arrest record, about your conviction record. But what you`re telling me has the ring of truth. How did you get dragged into this? What happened?
THOMPSON: Nancy, I`ve been trying to find out that same question. How did I get put in this mess? That`s what I try to get Matt and his father, somebody to try to help me to find out why they even disrupting my life because it has been totally crazy for the last two or three weeks.
GRACE: People think you had something to do with hiding Caylee`s body, or worse?
THOMPSON: I think that`s what they eventually are trying to say, Nancy, but I haven`t even talked to him to try to find out. I just want to be somebody to help me out to see what they`re trying to say I did.
NANCY: So they just put on the defense witness list without even talking to you?
THOMPSON: Yes, ma`am.
MATT MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR VASCO THOMPSON, SURPRISE DEFENSE WITNESS: Yes, they did, Nancy. That`s where it gets dicey because what will have to be determined by the judge is whether this was willful or whether it was inadvertent, whether they just recently found out about Vasco or whether they had knowledge prior to this day.
GRACE: Wait a minute, first of all, Matt Morgan, joining us in Orlando with Vasco Thompson, the so-called mystery witness the defense put on their witness list. Was Vasco Thompson to be the golden ticket, the golden ring you grab and you win the lottery?
GRACE: They put his name on the defense list. It gets out there that he`s a convicted felon for kidnapping, does eight years with decades on probation after that.
Suggesting that his phone number pops up repeatedly on George Anthony`s cell phone, either calling him or getting called by George in the days after Caylee`s reported missing. That`s big. That`s big.
The speculation around Vasco Thompson has been huge. Was he in some plot with George Anthony to hide the body or even worse? So Matt Morgan, how did it all unfold? How did people get in touch with your client and what are people now saying your client had something to do with Caylee`s death?
MORGAN: Essentially what they`re going to, Nancy, is a few calls that went back and forth, back in 2008, right around the time that Caylee went missing.
And what they`re trying to say is that these calls somehow made a connection between George Anthony and my client, Vasco Thompson.
And essentially what we want you and the public and the press to be aware of is that Vasco did not have this number that he currently has back in 2008.
GRACE: So are you telling me, Matt Morgan, that wasn`t even his phone number at the time the calls were made back and forth to George Anthony?
MORGAN: That`s exactly what I`m telling you, Nancy. That`s why this is incredibly appalling. That`s why Vasco is so taken off guard by this subpoena that he received the other day.
GRACE: Here is the deal, Vasco Thompson, you might as well dig in because look what is happening to Zenaida Gonzalez, all right?
People think she`s a killer. They think she kidnapped Caylee and they see her, they won`t hire her, the whole shebang. So dig in. Unleash the - - go ahead.
MORGAN: You know, Nancy, this whole thing began with Casey dragging Zanny the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez into this, and our firm was able to clear her name.
And now it is ending with Vasco, just another attempt by Casey Anthony to try to create some kind of reasonable doubt and, you know, it is really, you know, upsetting for Vasco, obviously.
GRACE: Now apparently Jose Baez stated that he -- he made a motion, a formal motion, to add Vasco Thompson to the witness list, said he tried to contact him.
That Thompson wouldn`t talk to him and found out who he was and apparently Thompson was so concerned, he calls the police. Now, listen, when you got a convicted felon calling the police that speaks volumes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say in the documents that Cindy Anthony told them a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket was missing from Caylee`s bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recall there being a baby blanket was found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who was that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Winnie-the-Pooh with Piglet on its back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee`s remains were found with a Winnie-the- Pooh blanket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that has been returned to us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did it smell like there had been a dead body in it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can feel it. It is coming and getting closer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recognize it as human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t forget that odor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I checked the trunk area. I noticed some stain on the carpet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jumped up into the trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Left side of trunk liner.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The presence of blood and they were negative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: High levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unusually high.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The scene as you know it is consistent with that scenario. That the body was placed there within two or three days of death and remained there consistently until it was found. There is nothing about the scene that would refute that, isn`t that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is consistent with a lot of scenarios, but, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This body was, for some two or three days, in another location, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you assume the environmental conditions that you proposed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But right assuming as far as temperature goes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And that location would have to be such that early colonizers were unable to get to it. Would that be correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. And the reason for that is the early colonizers, there were early colonizers present on the body in very low levels, so they had some access.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how many days is it that you feel at this temperature we`re experiencing right now, that that body was some place else before it went to that location? Around 95 degrees today, as I understand. I feel the same way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably around two to three or maybe four days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You would agree that from that point on this body, the evidence is consistent with this body remaining at that location from that point forward? Correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you assume that the remains were exposed to those conditions and if you assume that they did not have some sort of intermediary conditions and/or placed directly at that scene that would be consistent.
GRACE: We are live at the Orlando Courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.
The defense drops a torpedo, a bomb in court today, I think unintended when it slipped up they hired the bug expert before Caylee`s body had been identified.
I want to go to Dr. Henry Lee, former consultant to the tot mom defense team, distinguished professor of Forensic Science, University of New Haven.
Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. The defense called an entomologist today. What do you make of them calling the entomologist?
I assume it is just to attack the state`s case and then it slips up, maybe he was hired before the body was identified, Dr. Lee?
HENRY LEE, FORMER CONSULTANT TO TOT MOM DEFENSE TEAM: Yes, of course. The general public is going to think that`s very strange. However, it is a common practice, just like you buying insurance before a car accident or retaining a lawyer before the police arrest you and formally charge you.
GRACE: You mean, when you know you did something wrong and you know the police are going to come knock, knock, knock at your door.
LEE: No, -- something wrong to protect your right.
GRACE: I`ve never called a defense attorney to represent me.
LEE: You probably not and I didn`t never call a defense attorney to protect me.
GRACE: That`s right. Because you didn`t do anything wrong.
LEE: But Jose Baez is the one contacting. It is not Casey and I was contacted way before when, you know, she was first become a suspect, they contact me.
We did exam, I did examine the car and, of course, this case just has so many inconsistencies. If the body was in the car, she`ll have maggot.
Of course, now say the body in the plastic bag was sealed then the odor should not come out. And the smell chloroform if the body in the plastic bag, you should not smell the chloroform either.
So there are so many inconsistency there. It is an interesting case, but scientific evidence really not that conclusive, especially no blood, no tissue was found on --
GRACE: Well, Dr. Lee, hold on a minute, both the state and the defense theory of death has nothing to do with bloodshed. The state says she was asphyxiated due to duct tape and chloroform. The defense says she drowned in a pool. Why should there be blood?
LEE: Not necessarily blood, body fluid. Just a component of the body fluid. The body decompose, you going to have some --
GRACE: Well, according to the state there was body fluid. Hold on, Dr. Lee. Jason Byrd joining us, forensic entomologist, University of Florida.
Jason, explain to me, thank you for being with us, maybe you can clear this up, how can maggots from a trash bag have been used to determine time of death?
JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA (via telephone): Well, thank you for having me on the show, first, always good to be here.
You can use them to determine time of death as long as you have a couple of additional items of information. You have be to able to know what species they are, what they are, and you have to know their life stage, a couple of different stages of the maggot, which is a larva.
Then you also have to know the temperature at which that insect existed throughout its development and if you don`t have any one of those little three components coming up with postmortem interval estimation becomes difficult.
GRACE: What about that, Dr. Lee?
LEE: I think he`s absolutely correct because his case, and I don`t think the bottom line is the cause of death and the manner of the death. That`s having really established yet, is this really a murder or --
GRACE: You`re right, Dr. Lee. They`re never going to get the cause of death because the body was so decomposed. But finding a child, whether a mouth covered in duct tape out in a trash dump in a wooded area suggests, according to the medical examiner, that it was homicide.
With me, renowned expert Dr. Henry Lee, joining us from new haven and now CNN heroes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A child of war can be simply described as a kid caught between a rock and a hard place. It is finding al your pieces and trying to put them back together. I do have something in common with the kids.
You wake up every morning thinking, we`re going to survive. Sanitation is not a priority. We have about 2 million kids that die of sanitation issues mainly because they don`t wash their hands.
I`m Dirk Kayongo. I`m a refugee. Now, I help people fight disease with basic sanitation. You have some soap for me? This is great. The issue is not the availability of soap, but the issue is cost. Can they afford it?
Eight hundred million bar of soaps that the hotels throw away in the U.S. alone every year. We are able to get a lot of soap, which we can purchase and make brand new soap out of it. We clean it, melt it, and then cut it into pieces. We box it and ship it.
Being here in Kenya at this orphanage is coming full circle, but with good news. It is very good to have it and use it to fight off the disease. Those are clean. That`s very good.
One of the things I have learned from the kids a sense of resilience, to know that they have this sense of hope and joy is remarkable. Do I feel like I`m having an impact on them? Yes, I think so.
GRACE: The murder trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony under way. Finally, reality hits. The consequences of murder and the brutal death of 2-year- old Caylee Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ashton, Mr. Ashton, calm down, OK? Calm down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking back, you know, that`s the scariest part. She was a very attentive mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have already said they are going to pin this on me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An outline of a heart appeared in one of the corners on the edge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spiteful bitch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of that piece of duct tape, indication of a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All you have is speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny the nanny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have see a photograph of Zanny the nanny?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your job, Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Located in the bedroom of Casey Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You leave her somewhere and you worry if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That Casey has ever done any harm to her child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: July 2nd, 2008, Casey Anthony obtained a tattoo. This Italian phrase translates to beautiful life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony? Being the potential father of Caylee Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wants to ask this witness whether Mr. Lee Anthony was excluded as the father of Caylee, that`s fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calm down, calm down.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal William Leusink (ph) killed in Iraq on a second tour. Served Afghanistan, awarded a Purple Heart, Afghanistan Campaign Medal, Combat Action Medal, National Defense Service Medal.
Loved grilling out, watching football, family dinners after church on Sundays, movies, the beach, boogie boarding. Leaves behind grieving parents Bill and Elaine, sisters, Abby and Katie, brother, Tody, widow, Miranda, William Leusink, American Hero.
Thanks to our guests. Lung cancer, the number one killer in the world claiming more lives than breast, colon, prostate and kidney together. A call for the Joan Gaeta Lung Cancer Fund.
Go to divas with a cause. Everyone, I will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. We will be live at the Orlando Courthouse in our own way seeking justice for Caylee. Until then, good night.